[MD] Protagoras and "Measure"

MarshaV valkyr at att.net
Sat Jan 2 18:21:23 PST 2010
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Bye for now...



On Jan 2, 2010, at 8:35 PM, X Acto wrote:

> The law of non contradictions arguement is one of syllogistic meaning,
> Clarity in statements. 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 4:00:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ron,
> 
> Well, there is Aristotle's argument against Protagoras.    
> 
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 2, 2010, at 3:35 PM, X Acto wrote:
> 
>> Marsha,
>> Aristotle makes an interesting arguement
>> for certainty in meaning. meaning. not "reality".
>> He seems to side with you that reality is relative.
>> -Ron
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 11:35:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>> 
>> Ron,
>> 
>> I confess, I've never bothered much with Aristotle, and I'm more than a little concerned with your, or Aristotle's, use of the word 'certainty'.  To me 'certainty' translates into wishful thinking.  You know I'm partial to 'relative'.
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 11:24 AM, X Acto wrote:
>> 
>>> Marsha,
>>> Nope, just a tool for building certainty
>>> in meaning in the context of scientific
>>> inquirey.
>>> Aknowledging experience is relative
>>> in flux and ever dynamic.
>>> He takes time explaining why
>>> the greatest philosphers of the day
>>> fall short in their explainations.He
>>> emphasiszes that the careful construction
>>> of meaning is the only "knowledge"
>>> that may be derrived from experience.
>>> 
>>> I'm still reading but thats what I get so far.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 10:36:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Happy new year Ron,
>>> 
>>> So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of Excluded 
>>> Middle are just tools and were never intended to be used to 
>>> determine Reality?  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 9:43 AM, X Acto wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Marsha,
>>>>> From what I understand of my reading of Aristotles metaphysics
>>>> it sure does. Aristotle starts from the premise of the dynamic
>>>> and the relative making the arguement for distinctions or measure
>>>> for better understanding. True/false, non contradiction, are tools
>>>> to create order from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building
>>>> of certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is a theory
>>>> on the building of scientific meaning.
>>>> 
>>>> To look back through a scientific dominated society at it as
>>>> a statement about the laws of "reality"  is taking it a bit out 
>>>> of context in my own opinion.
>>>> 
>>>> best wishes for a happy new year
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>>>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>>>> Sent: Sat, January 2, 2010 8:09:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Protagoras and "Measure"
>>>> 
>>>> Ian, Matt,
>>>> 
>>>> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago:  All knowledge is to some degree 
>>>> false because it is to some degree incomplete.  Wouldn't this make knowledge both
>>>> true and false?  And this morning I read that Feyerbend called the laws of formal logic naive.  
>>>> Margolis says much about adding Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values: True or False, but
>>>> I'm finding his book very difficult because he mentions dozens of philosophers (briefly stating 
>>>> their argument) I have never heard of, and who seem to have some professional stake in 
>>>> this game.  But I wonder that DQ is present in every event and it is indeterminate.  Hmmm.  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marsha
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Nice one Matt,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd seen tha ambiguity on the measure / rationality aspect before but
>>>>> not the things / experience side of it. Very interesting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ian
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Matt Kundert
>>>>> <pirsigaffliction at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I ran across something interesting today.  I didn't realize this, but Protagoras' famous aphorism "Man is the measure of all things..." has an ambiguity in the English (at least for amateurs who only read translations and dabble in Greek words).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd always assumed that what standardly gets translated as "measure" was related to the Latin "ratio," and that old saw about how "reason" and mathematical "measuring" are ancient relations. etc.  Well, the Latin "ratio" is the translation of "logos," which all us amateurs recognize as one of the more famous Greek words: reason, thought, account, measure, word, etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Greek word translated as "measure" in Protagoras' aphorism is _not_ Logos, but
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Metron
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Metro" in modern Greek is still "measure."  However, what I ran across which made much of what the actual Greek word is was an alternative translation by Mario Untersteiner (often considered a renegade scholar by respected Anglophones I've run across), who wrote a book on the Sophists that is almost impossible to find in English for under $50 (been out of print for half a century):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Man is the master of all experiences..."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have no bead on what Greek word (or phrase) "things" or "experiences" translates.  All I can identify is "metron" and "anthropos" (the gender-neutral "man").  But I imagine "experiences" sounds even better to Pirsigians, whatever one might think of "measure vs. master."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Matt
>>>>>> 
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>>   
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>   
> _______________________________________________________________________
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