[MD] Intellectual and Social

[John Carl]

Greetings Steve,

On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Steven Peterson <peterson.steve at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> > For the following, I do like Steve's formulation mostly.  I think he's
> > missing key pieces tho. He leaves out the social/emotional matrix, for
> one:
> >
> > mechanistic cause and effect occur at the inorganic
> > Actions occur at the biological,
> > Emotions occur at the social
> > Thoughts occur at the intellectual.
>
>
> Accoring to Pirsig, the MOQ puts emotions at the biological level:
> "The MOQ sees emotions as a biological response to quality and not the same
> thing as quality. There are many cases, particularly in economic activity
> where values occur without any emotion." Note 141, Lila's Child
>

Yeah, I've encountered this.  I beg to differ with Pirsig in one or two
small, inconsequential areas and this is one of them.  I get permission by
reading his explanation of his demarcation  confining the third level to
human society, which is basically "It seemed like a good idea at the time."

You really think economic activity occurs without emotion?  Ha.  Without
emotion, there wouldn't be economic activity.  Or put another way, I wonder
if Bob is quite so glib since the collapse in investment values.


The feeling of fear, for example, can be a biological response to
> biological threats that does not depend on any social patterns.
>
>
Wrong again.  Lizards feel no fear, cows do.  For fear to occur, some sense
of self must be in place.  A sense of self is created through infant nurture
and the realization of the self/other dichotomy.  Thus any fear for this
socially constructed self, is  social.  SOL is social, not intellectual.
 SOM is intellectual, because it takes this SOL as fundamental to existence.


> I see emotions as the "carbon atom" of the biological level that
> provides the versatility to allow for the emergence of social
> patterns.
>
>
Emotions are the drivers of social patterns, not biological.  This is a
point that Pirsig missed because emotions have a biological expression,
pounding heart, hormonal flushing, etc. which is a case of mistaking effect
for cause.

Biology is driven by a non-emotional force known as "natural selection".
 Society, whether it be a wolf pack, a pod of whales or a city, are driven
by the emotional needs to protect and nurture the self and others in
complicated interactions.

Sorry for infecting the pristine MoQ with heresy, but there ya go.  Argue me
out of my adaptation if you can.

A few points to consider.  If all we were here for was to parrot Pirsig,
there would be no need for discussing the MoQ.  Of he'd be an active member
of the list, handing down his edicts from on high.  Some may long for that
kind of "Just tell me what to think" but imho, it'd be boring for the true
studentry AND the teacher.

Further, a classic Zen teaching is that a student who matches his teacher's
achievement, diminishes his teacher's virtue by half.  In order for the
teacher's virtue to be  positive, the student must strive to surpass the
teacher.  I advise more thinking along these lines.

Thanks Steve,

John



> Best,
> Steve
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