[MD] Where does logic itself belong inside the MOQ?

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Mary 

5 Jan. :

I had said before

> > my point was that neither matter-as-energy nor the so-called "forces of
> > nature" has anything to do with MOQ's "inorganic patterns of value". ...
> > What I am striving to bring across is that "nature, included forces,
> > and whatever - be it ever so immaterial - is the intellectual level's
> > business.

> Whoa, stop, you are in time-out until you learn to behave yourself :)

;-)  I had better take a sabbatical year, I've been too long in this game 
and believe that all my subtleties will be understood. I can assure you 
that your idea of the inorganic level isn't overturned by this  
  
> Please explain what I have wrong below, for based on your statements I
> now have NO understanding of the Inorganic.  Geez.  This was the one
> level I thought I had nailed. Inorganic level:  Rocks, dirt, anything
> that does not have DNA, or had DNA, but is now not capable of
> reproduction in any way (because it is DEAD). 

My point is that the MOQ is the highest view of existence there is, and 
no place to stay permanently. The static range is our abode. Now, if 
we climb up to the MOQ, it just says that there are those 4 levels and 
that the first one is the universe itself. It does not even say "physical 
universe" because physical is part of a S/O dualism. This is why I think 
we better drop science's vocabulary lest rocks become "material" and 
forces-energy ..etc. becomes "immaterial". All this the MOQ leaves to 
its highest static level and its "science".           

> Biological level: Things that have DNA, can reproduce in any fashion.

Likewise: The MOQ says that the next higher level is the biological. 
Full stop! Where exactly life begins - again - isn't MOQ's business, this 
it also leaves to intellect's science. MOQ's business is the moral 
increment, that from this point a new moral code began to overrule the  
inorganic.    

> Social level: The ATTITUDE that says you have no free will and should
> do what your betters tell you to do.

The two lower have some SOM (scientific) counterparts even if these 
as science shy all value connotations, but when it comes to the 3rd. 
level the scientific discipline "sociology" shyness of value makes it 
useless as a reference, here the MOQ must define what IT sees as 
social value, and as the name indicates it is the "common cause" that 
in a value context over-rules the biological "eat & proliferate". 
     
IMO, free will had to be invented before it could be abolished and this 
is an intellectual value pattern.   

> Intellectual level: The ATTITUDE that says F.U. to the Social level.

Yes, you are right with the addition that all level's attitude is really the 
F.U regarding its parent levels, but to elaborate a bit more. As 
mentioned the two lower levels have some rudimentary likeness to 
science's physics and biology, but at the social level "sociology" is 
useless, and when it comes to the intellectual level all SOM(science)-
MOQ likenesses breaks down, here the value aspect is all - naturally 
because intellect is science itself (SOM stripped of its "M").            

NB! 
But the "intellectual" term isn't wrong, it's means (in my dictionary) the 
power of distinguishing between whats objective and what's subjective 
= SOM. Voila! But for some reason "intellect" has come to indicate all  
"mental activity" and even Pirsig fell into that pit when he spoke about . 
"higher primates" as displaying intellect. What they display is 
INTELLIGENCE.   

> Am I mistaken???

Not at all, and hopefully you will see my subtle points after this? It's not 
exactly year the reality "sock" is turned inside-out so it ain't easy to 
convey this collossal upheaval.   

> My Earth-centric Human brain is feeble. Let's scrap that and look at
> the MoQ as an alien might.  Imagine you are from another planet.  You
> do not have human assumptions.  Perhaps your species seeded the local
> galaxy.  You've never heard of a Southern Baptist, Rush Limbaugh, the
> Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle, or a dog.  How would you describe
> the levels?

Me from another planet??? That's plain impossible, but let's say aliens 
came here. If by techical means they must surely be of all 4 Q-levels 
and if intellect were their highest  focus they would have the same 
problems as ourselves in understanding the MOQ. If they had 
advanced beyond intellect they would inevitably be "moqists". 
Language could/would be a problem though, but they would certainly 
come in peace. 

Bodvar