[MD] Intellectual and Social

[John Carl]

>
>
> Dan:
> I guess I'd have to wonder how you know that lizards feel no fear but
> cows do. Lizards run when someone tries to catch them. Do you mean to
> tell me they're just exercising? And cows? They're so stupid that they
> just lay there when you tip them over. Look at amoebas. Amoebas move
> away from acidic environments. Are they scared? I don't know. But just
> because I move away from a hot stove doesn't mean I'm scared. Nor does
> it even mean I exist as an individual self. I guess I fail to see your
> point.
>
>
My point is my hypothesis that S/O consciousness is created by infant
nurture in mammalian development.

 That's the way it seems to me.  I'm reliying upon my emotional
intuitiveness because I believe the same subtle cues of expression I see and
chemical cues I smell subconsciously inform me.

For more solid proof, I was hoping Krimel would jump in here about now
because it was his posting back when I was new on this list that led me to
this hypothesis - about the physical development of the mammalian brain.

Lizards and amoeba and all biological beings take action - with this I
agree.  But the emotional attachment to self I see only in the mammals.



>
> Dan:
> I think he says celebrity drives social patterns. I think you're
> barking up a different tree.
>
>

Celebrity is the goal of social pattern, but emotions are the drives toward
this goal.   In a wolffpack, the celebrity pair is the alpha male/female.
In humans, it's Britney and Paris and President Obama, but with no emotional
drive toward celebrity there is no evolution of the level.  Thus emotion is
the driver, celebrity the goal.


> >John:
> > Biology is driven by a non-emotional force known as "natural selection".
> >  Society, whether it be a wolf pack, a pod of whales or a city, are
> driven
> > by the emotional needs to protect and nurture the self and others in
> > complicated interactions.
>
> Dan:
> Debatable. I'd say we convey emotions in a social manner but we feel
> emotions biologically. And I don't know what being a wolf or a whale
> entails. I am human.
>
>

A human in embryonic form is little different from whales or wolves.  A
child raised by wolves would probably act like a wolf.  LIke I said, this is
a somewhat intuitive grasping of likeness.


> >John:
> > Sorry for infecting the pristine MoQ with heresy, but there ya go.  Argue
> me
> > out of my adaptation if you can.
>
> Dan:
> Seems like you got an attitude brewing there, John. Doctor Dan
> suggests sitting back, lighting up a fatty, and getting back to me
> when you're feeling more mellow.
>


 Dude!  I'm always mellow!

I'm reading Royce's history of California right now and boy does he have
some interesting insight into the way an environment forms the individual
and society.  Reading his description of the attitude you get from living in
a place that isn't trying to kill you half the year is quite amazing.  His
description fits me to a "T", and his contrast with the New England
Individualist and the California individualist made for some fascinating
reading that I'm itching to share with Marsha.

Lessee, it's gonna be 62 degrees today, I hope the rest of y'all are keeping
warm where you're at.


> >John:
> > A few points to consider.  If all we were here for was to parrot Pirsig,
> > there would be no need for discussing the MoQ.  Of he'd be an active
> member
> > of the list, handing down his edicts from on high.  Some may long for
> that
> > kind of "Just tell me what to think" but imho, it'd be boring for the
> true
> > studentry AND the teacher.
>
> Dan:
> Parroting Pirsig? Are you serious? Have you read any of the archives?
>

Umm no.  Not really.  I try and keep my interaction dynamic rather than
static.  But if there's anything real pertinent, by all means refer me.

Parrotting is probably too harsh, but I'd say this that an argument needs
more evidence than "Pirsig sez", and that's my main point.



> >John:
> > Further, a classic Zen teaching is that a student who matches his
> teacher's
> > achievement, diminishes his teacher's virtue by half.  In order for the
> > teacher's virtue to be  positive, the student must strive to surpass the
> > teacher.  I advise more thinking along these lines.
>
> Dan:
> It seems to me that a teacher ought to point out the path a student
> walks. In any endeavor, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Each
> learns from the other... the student how to teach and the teacher how
> to learn. It is the natural order of things that they change places.
>
>

I agree.  Furthermore, when both the teacher and the students are driven by
pursuit of what is good, rather than social accolades, they are partners in
a way.  That's what I call community.

Take care,

John



> Dan
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