[MD] Intellect's Symposium

[Mary]

Hello Mati,

I too have a problem with all definitions of the Intellectual level I have
heard.  For me, it is nothing more than an attitude allowing one to question
the strictures of the Social level, and thus allow for more creative
thinking.  There was plenty of thinking going on before the Greeks, as there
is plenty of it going on in the Social level today (religion and politics).
I have a problem with Bo's definition as the S/O split.  To me, this is very
fundamental.  Doesn't a dog see itself as separate from its master?  The S/O
split is a byproduct of the ego.  If I am "I" and you are "you", then we
have an automatic S/O split right there.  The only types of brains that
would not see the world this way are those that do not have a personal
consciousness, right?

- Mary
The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.

-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of KAYE PALM-LEIS
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:04 PM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: [MD] Intellect's Symposium

To all,
Hmmm.....  if there was a sainthood for tolerance Bodvar would get my
nomination.  That being said a friend recently was getting rid of some
books and I pick up Plato's "Symposium".  For those not familiar with
it, it is a collection of speechless on love at a dinner party.  Given
it's time and context before for Aristotle I was interested in the
manner in which they presented the topic.  Again given the day there
was some pretty sophicated discussions that some could easily suggest
is very reflective and evidence of intellect.  Though the discussion
is very sophisticated for its time, articulating and presenting a
various point of views, which some might suggest are hallmarks of
intellect, I would suggest intellect is not present in at least in the
context or actual presentation of this collection of speeches.

I realize it seems to some totally nuts that a concept and value such
as intellect did not magically assert itself until Aristotle's wrestle
with the issue of reality and gives us the s/o split, however the act
of consciously thinking, which some of you have proposed as intellect,
is as old as the dawn of mankind. I will share from Pirsig letter to
Paul Turner....

"There has been a tendency to extend the meaning of "social" down into
the biological with the assertion that, for example, ants are social,
but I have argued that this extends the meaning to a point where it is
useless for classification. I said that even atoms can be called
societies of electrons and protons. And since everything is thus
social, why even have the word? I think the same happens to the term,
"intellectual," when one extends it much before the Ancient Greeks.*
If one extends the term intellectual to include primitive cultures
just because they are thinking about things, why stop there? How about
chimpanzees? Don't they think? How about earthworms? Don't they make
conscious decisions? How about bacteria responding to light and
darkness? How about chemicals responding to light and darkness? Our
intellectual level is broadening to a point where it is losing all its
meaning. You have to cut it off somewhere,......
Snipppppppp.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason I seemed to snip so vigorously is that was in totally
agreement with Pirsig says here until he shares his definition of
intellect in which my head crashes into the keyboard with frustration.
His definition does more narrowly defines intellect than "thinking" or
"Thinking about thinking".  He says, ..... " and it seems to me the
greatest meaning can be given to the intellectual level if it is
confined to the skilled manipulation of abstract symbols that have no
corresponding particular experience and which behave according to
rules of their own."

I truly admired MoQ for it's simplicity and then Pirsig gives us this.
 Based on this definition we can use some of the earliest "languages"
even the old testament could meet this criteria. Eventhough just a
paragraph earlier Pirsig states, " But if one studies the early books
of the Bible or if one studies the sayings of primitive tribes today,
the intellectual level is conspicuously absent."  Lets look at the
first three words of the old testement, "In the Begining..."   The
language is a "skill manipulation of abstract symbols" of a concept
("the Beginning") to define a reality that understands time/space
continuum, a beginning / end (according to rules of their own)"  If
this isn't your cup of tea various abstract mathematical concepts
existed long before the ancient Greeks that could meet this criteria,
heck by this criteria you could argue that hmmmm..... "just thinking"
could meet this criteria.  I have long admired MoQ for it's simplicity
however in this single definition that Pirsig offer it seem to
undermine everything that he has achieved with MoQ.

I will share again that with the ancient Greeks something special
happened.  They questioned reality as never before.  Thales,
Anaximander, Anaximenes, Heraclitus, Xenophanes, Anaxagoras and others
questioned the nature of reality.  They experimented with abstract
ideas that tried to explain the world/reality as never before.  They
wanted to understand the world to answer questions the gods/social
level had no answers for.  They were trying to take thinking to the
next level.  It is only when the advent of the s/o split that perhaps
for the first time in history that understanding the world was not
beholden to the social level.   So much of Plato's Symposium was
beholden to the social level, in fact I am hard pressed to find where
it is not.  All thinking before the s/o split was either beholden or
arrested to the social level.  Had the Symposium had taken place, let
say, 200 years later it wouldn't have been presented in a manner that
would be quiet different because of the s/o split and how the reality,
which love exists, would be viewed.  Actually in some respects I guess
the new symposium would have not been as entertaining as the old one.

Maybe it time for a new symposium!  Heck, I will turn my backyard into
a stately affair with all the fixins of a great feast and endless
drink and invite you all over.  I propose that the topic is intellect.
 Hmmm.... perhaps I should consult with my wife first. :-)

Respectfully,
Mati
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