[MD] What is the oppostite of Quality?

[X Acto]

Quality

if one looks it up, does not what Pirsig means either
but in the context of our discuss ...it does...

Chaos very well, and could be understood in the same way
if we choose to give it the verysame consideration, in fact
it does lend an indeterminate understanding in implied
meaning that "Quality" does not hold readily.

But holding cultural definitions as a basis for declining
specified meaning in the contexts we are speaking about
is not holding our MoQ namesake to the same standards
of meaning and is quite unfair a reason for dismissal.

-Ron



----- Original Message ----
From: Dan Glover <daneglover at gmail.com>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 9:44:15 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] What is the oppostite of Quality?

chaos

A new branch of science that deals with systems whose evolution
depends very sensitively upon the initial conditions. Turbulent flows
of fluids (such as white water in a river) and the prediction of the
weather are two areas where chaos theory has been applied with some
success. (www.dictionary.com)

I think it is pretty clear that this is not what Robert Pirsig means
by Dynamic Quality. I recall that I once asked him about whether it
was wise to say Dynamic Quality is always positive. He said (and I
paraphrase) perhaps not, that it might be better to say it's not this,
not that. It is in LILA'S CHILD toward the end.


On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Krimel <Krimel at krimel.com> wrote:
>> [Krimel]
>> What a depressing quote. Chaos is not always a destructive force in fact
>> it is the creative power of the universe. Order is a subset of chaos. If
>> this was a fairly new idea when Pirsig wrote Lila is was not 10 years
>> later. He really should know better.
>
> [Steve]
> If you are calling chaos the creative power of the universe and order
> a subject of chaos, it sounds like what you are calling chaos Pirsig
> calls Quality.
>
> [Krimel]
> Yes, and I have been doing so consistently for years now.
>
> Just look at the quote Andre provided:
>
> 'Dynamic Quality and chaos are both patternless, and so it would seem they
> have a lot in common, particularly the fact that you can't say anything
> about them without getting into static patterns."
>
> [Krimel]
> Yes, yes, you are almost there Bob. It is like the passage in Lila where you
> say that the MoQ could almost be thought of as a Metaphysics of Randomness.
>
> [Unfortunately the quote continues...]
> "But if you do, you can say that Dynamic Quality is good and precedes static
> improvement. It is the source of experience. Chaos, by contrast is the
> condition of total destruction. You can't call it either good or bad.
> It is not the source of anything'."
>
> [Krimel]
> This just reduces DQ to anything that is "good" not all DQ is good and DQ
> does not always precede static improvement. Conversely chaos does not always
> produce destruction. Selection of lottery tickets is a chaotic process and
> it often produces enormous good for someone. Chaos only looks destructive
> because disordered states are much more likely than ordered states.
>
> Chaos is a creative force in the universe because it means that nothing is
> ever rigid and fixed and lawful. Everything is changing chaotically and
> there is always room of "oops" and "aha". The world is not a Newtonian
> billiard table, an idealized plane and hypothetical spheres. The world is a
> pool hall with erratic lighting, free flowing alcohol and sexual tension.
> What determines whether or not the eight ball lands in the side pocket is,
> more often than not, the whims of Bacchus and Eros not the Laws of geometry
> and physics.
>
>
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