[MD] Intellectual and Social

[plattholden at gmail.com]

Hey Steve, Bruce

Bruce's example is an empirical fact established by observation and 
experiment. But, where is the evidence that values are involved?  How 
do we convince doubters that the germ-immunity conflict is a moral 
struggle? I mean it's easy to say that all battles are moral battles. But, 
how do you prove it in court? 

I'm beginning to suspect that Pirsig's theory is like evolution, climate 
change and God's will because no matter what happens the theory 
applies. (Cave paintings were a survival tactic, global warming causes  
freezing weather in Miami, aids is punishment for the sin of 
homosexuality.) Now comes the MOQ where a motorcycle is a moral 
victory over inertia (intellectual vs.inorganic levels.)

I wonder.

Best,
Platt



On 8 Jan 2010 at 14:37, Bruce Underwood wrote:

> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thank you for these gems! It is a confirmation on my thoughts in this area and gives me more to ponder.  Is this in "Lila's Child"?
> 
> Concerning struggles within levels... the easiest example that I can think of:  is biological against biological - virus attacking the human body and the immune defenses that the body has developed.  But there are millions of examples on every level.  Social Level: Church and State
> 
> Bruce
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2010 11:02:59 -0500
> > From: peterson.steve at gmail.com
> > To: moq_discuss at moqta lk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Intellectual and Social
> >
> > Hi Platt, Bruce,
> >
> > More Pirsig on the struggles:
> >
> >
> > "If you compare the levels of static patterns that compose a human being to
> > the ecology of a forest, and if you see the different patterns sometimes in
> > competition with each other, sometimes in symbiotic support of each other,
> > but always in a kind of tension that will shift one way or the other,
> > depending on evolving circumstances, then you can also see that evolution
> > doesn't take place only within societies, it takes place within individuals
> > too. It's possible to see Lila as something much greater than a customary
> > sociological or anthropological description would have her be. Lila then
> > becomes a complex ecology of patterns moving toward Dynamic Quality. Lila
> > individually, herself, is in an evolutionary battle against the static
> > patterns of her own life."
> >
> > "That's why the absence of suffering last night seemed so ominous and her
> > change to what looked like suffering today gave Phædrus a feeling she
> > was getting better. If you eliminate suffering from this world you
> > eliminate life. There's no evolution. Those species that don't
> > suffer don't survive. Suffering is the negative face of the Quality
> > that drives the whole process. All these battles between patterns of
> > evolution go on within suffering individuals like Lila."
> >
> > "And Lila's battle is everybody's battle, you know? Sometimes the insane and
> > the contrarians and the ones who are the closest to suicide are the most
> > valuable people society has. They may be precursors of social change.
> > They've taken the burdens of the culture onto themselves, and in their
> > struggle to solve their own problems they're solving problems for the
> > culture as well."
> >
> > Platt said:
> >> Excellent. These "struggles" between and within moral levels is central to
> >> understanding the MOQ. The one remaining question that I don't think anyone
> >> has answered is: "Are moral values and their struggles empirical facts?
> >
> > Steve:
> > I'm not sure what you mean by "empirical facts." If you are just
> > asking if they are real, I don't know why anyone would doubt that
> > these struggles were real so I wouldn't no where to begin in arguing
> > that they are real.
> >
> > Best,
> > Steve