[MD] Metaphysics

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi Ron

11 Jan. :
 
Andre's epiphany:
> > Then it came to me...the passage in ZMM (I think) where Phaedrus has a
> > conversation with a priest and they are talking about the liturgy, the
> > most sacred part: when the wine changes into blood, and the bread
> > changes into the body of Christ. Phaedrus asks along the lines of;
> > (sorry I do not have a copy of ZMM with me) yes, but this is
> > symbolically..yeS??. No! says the priest, this is real. At that moment,
> > the wine and bread change into the actual blood and body of Jesus
> > Christ! Christians all over the world actually and factually believe
> > that this is indeed the case. And, further more, the Bible is of course
> > seen, not as a book full of stories ( if I may take the liberty, as a
> > book full of fingers pointing to the moon!!) but as the actual word of
> > God.

Ron:
> Are we to surmise that you both are equating reality with belief? Some
> interesting considerations in regard to what Bodvar calls Andre's
> "breakthrough"

You may have read my post for Mark and much the same applies to 
your notorious non-understanding. 

> There are many types of beliefs, as you say then, many types of
> realities. You say MoQ is the true belief, on what do you base this
> on? What makes MoQ any more true than any other belief ever held?

You still live in SOM-land (no great revelation) and your references to 
MOQ's level system is just perfunctory, you really consider everything 
to be intellectual patterns (in SOM's mental sense) Religions one 
mental pattern ("low perhaps) Science a higher mental pattern and the 
MOQ the highest - yet mental - intellectual pattern. And from this 
premise you ask (like Mark did) if the MOQ is the true (mental) 
BELIEF i.e. subjective representation of objective reality..       

> Then, this view admits SOM as a belief also...along with every
> religeon and superstition ever held, every hallucenation.....it openly
> admits many types of metaphyical systems by your definition of what
> the term "metaphysics" should mean. There seem to be some consequences
> that do not line up with your contentions when equating the term
> metaphysics with belief not to mention equating metaphysics with the
> concept of a "reality".

No, from MOQ's premises SOM is no "intellect-as-mental-beliefs" 
pattern, but the static intellectual level that superseded the static social 
level where religions are the primary patterns (to become "beliefs" or  
"superstition" in intellect's retrospect. It (intellect) then coined a new 
term - "metaphysics" - for its own more objective approach. Then out 
of intellect-as-SOM did the MOQ spring and (as is the rule) had to use 
intellect's own strength to "throw it", i.e. objectively reveal the Quality 
Reality where SOM suddenly found itself to be MOQ's 4th. level. Thus 
all these your SOM-based objections are nil and void.           

> "Reality" is supposed to be equated with experience to a subsciber
> of Robert Pirsig. Beliefs are said to shape and color experience but
> they are not primary to experience according to Pirsig. If belief is
> reality then the truly delusional reign. 

Reality is experience, but this comes in the Dynamic/Static - plus the 
static levels - form. Jeez, when will the MOQ dawn on you?. 

Bodvar