[MD] Metaphysics

[markhsmit]

Hi Marsha,
Thanks for your response.  The only place I would be at odds
with you, by inference, is the notion that gods are man-made
legends, while Quality is not.  I do not see the difference in
their fundamental man-made basis.
Cheers,
Mark

On Jan 14, 2010, at 11:41:12 PM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
From:   MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Metaphysics
Date:   January 14, 2010 11:41:12 PM PST
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org

On Jan 15, 2010, at 1:40 AM, markhsmit wrote:

> Mark:
> I'm not sure what you mean by more moral and logical.
> Those terms are defined through convention. I suppose
> that within that convention what you state is true. But only 
> within that convention. What about outside of that?

Marsha:
There is silence. 



> Mark:
> There is the educational God, which is an intellectual concept
> that as such goes no further than ones thoughts. There is 
> the found God, that is not acquired educationally. This is a
> God that transcends the intellect. Such a God is then translated
> to the intellect in order to describe it to others and for no other
> reason. Those seeking to describe it find themselves at a loss
> for words, since it is not an intellectual concept. The MoQ does
> not state anything. There is no God of the MoQ who is making
> the rules at this point. This is an open discussion to come to 
> terms with a personal sense of MoQ. The intellectual part of
> this philosophy is only a simple translation. If you doubt me,
> go ahead and describe Quality in more than just a few catch
> phrases with ambiguous meaning.

God or gods (or other supernatural beings) are man-made 
constructs, myths and legends and these concepts are not 
meaningful.

You know the Quality that is described is not the true Quality.


> Mark:
> Quality is reality is experience is a poor substitution of words
> for the truth.

Marsha:
They work for a conventional truth.


> Mark:
> Your Quality is your reality is your experience is closer to the truth. 
> If I deny experience then I deny your reality,not mine. 

Marsha:
I notice you haven't denied your experience.


> Mark:
> If Quality is reality, then why was it called Quality?
> Does this lend a larger sense of reality than the term reality?

Marsha:
It allows for conventional discussion.


> Mark:
> I think it is great that you believe that reality is experience. If
> you describe to me what exactly you mean by these words, that
> is derive a complex set of equalities, you can form a better picture
> for me of your belief. 

Marsha:
Experience IS reality. I, you, me and yours are conventional tags;
there is no one to understand the words. The words flow like a 
river. Picture a river. 


> Mark:
> Once you create a picture with feeling you get a little closer to
> that you are seeking. Then you can drop the words entirely and
> be Quality not objectify it asa concept. This is one way to break
> the SOM.

Marsha:
Dropping the words, for some unknown reason, has not been the
problem. Keeping them dropped is difficult. Convince me that to
drop words indefinitely is necessary. Death comes soon enough?

Cheers to you.


Marsha





> Cheers,
> Mark
> 
> On Jan 14, 2010, at 1:34:07 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics
> Date: January 14, 2010 1:34:07 AM PST
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I would think that not to believe in God would be the more moral and 
> logical decision. God is a social construction taught and assumed 
> since childhood. The MoQ states that Quality is reality is experience.
> Will you deny experience?
> 
> 
> Marsha
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 13, 2010, at 11:51 PM, markhsmit wrote:
> 
>> Hi Marsha,
>> Yes, analogies or systems all the way down and up. Which is of course
>> an analogy in itself. You speak of the liberty of belief in one thing or
>> another. I do not believe that exists. Can one force him/herself to
>> believe in something. Belief exists because it feels right, not because it
>> is convenient. If a belief in God is not intellectual, then no belief is. It is 
>> easy to confuse complexity for intellect, but it is all the same, to me at
>> least.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Mark
>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:04:59 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
>> From: MarshaV <valkyr at att.net>
>> Subject: Re: [MD] Metaphysics
>> Date: January 11, 2010 12:04:59 AM PST
>> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
>> 
>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:59 AM, markhsmit wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Very interesting post. It kind of has the ring of analogues all the way
>> down. I do like that, but in my understanding, conventionally, or statically
>> speaking, some patterns are conventionally more useful than others. 
>> This would make the levels more important. Should I be a "believer" in
>> God because it's a social imperative? If it's to avoid being burned at the 
>> stake, it might be a smart idea to state that one believes in God, but for
>> any intellectual reason, then I don't think so. 
>> 
>> 
>> Marsha
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Bodvar to virtually all of us:
>>> 
>>> Yes, you bet, metaphysics in the the true MOQ sense is reality, that's
>>> the very point!
>> 
>>> Hello Bodvar and All:
>>> When I read this, something dawned on me but couldn?t give it
>>> expression until I lay, quietly on my electric blanket (it is fucking
>>> freezing here!).
>>> Then it came to me...the passage in ZMM (I think) where Phaedrus has a
>>> conversation with a priest and they are talking about the liturgy, the
>>> most sacred part: when the wine changes into blood, and the bread
>>> changes into the body of Christ. Phaedrus asks along the lines of;
>>> (sorry I do not have a copy of ZMM with me) yes, but this is
>>> symbolically..yeS??. No! says the priest, this is real. At that
>>> moment, the wine and bread change into the actual blood and body of
>>> Jesus Christ!
>>> Christians all over the world actually and factually believe that this
>>> is indeed the case. And, further more, the Bible is of course seen,
>>> not as a book full of stories ( if I may take the liberty, as a book
>>> full of fingers pointing to the moon!!) but as the actual word of God.
>> 
>>> [Mark]: In response to Andre.
>>> So Andre, you believe that it is not the word of God. Let me remind
>>> you that that is a belief too, no more or less than to believe it is.
>>> However, your posts sounds rather righteous, as if you believe
>>> that your belief is correct. How did you get to this higher level?
>>> How is it that your belief somehow is more right than, say, a
>>> Christian's? In fact your belief is so blind, that you think that
>>> it is somehow outside the system of beliefs, somehow the right way to
>>> believe. Once you realize the relative nature of beliefs,
>>> that is, that they are just opinions, you may see a little more.
>>> So, yes, the wine is the blood of Christ to those that believe it,
>>> and it is not to those who believe otherwise. There is
>>> no right or wrong, unless you believe you are God. But of course if
>>> your system of belief is that there isn't one, then you are something
>>> else that is all knowing, or not. There is a God and there isn't a
>>> God, both are correct. No need to take sides.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________________________________
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>> 
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