[MD] Waiter, I don't think this Quality is any Good

[markhsmit]

Hi Andre,

This may be a change of subject, but I think that it is more important
to know how Pirsig got there than what it means.  There are a
hundred roads to awareness, Buddha used the analogy of
suffering, Christ used the analogy of a Father, Plato used an
analogy of a cave.  Pirsig uses the analogy of Quality.  All of 
these work.  Just understanding what the words mean will
not bring understanding.  I don't care how Pirsig defines it,
that is not important.  He achieve a feeling of reality by walking
a certain road as is depicted in ZAMM.  That is the teaching.

Mark

On Jan 16, 2010, at 5:14:12 PM, "Andre Broersen" <andrebroersen at gmail.com> wrote:
From:   "Andre Broersen" <andrebroersen at gmail.com>
Subject:    Re: [MD] Waiter, I don't think this Quality is any Good
Date:   January 16, 2010 5:14:12 PM PST
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Ron to Andre:
Calling experience "Quality" is indeed Pirsigs idea.
But if you are equating Quality with experience in the
understanding of the meaning of the term, then yes
Quality is not Pirsigs alone.

Andre:
And this is the experience I refer to Ron. Pirsig wasn't even happy
with 'Quality' as a way of describing that to which it refers but, if
you don't give it a name, there is little to talk about, let alone
creating a metaphysics. Also, Pirsig is fairly fussy about the meaning
of his terms used. The Annotations of LC show this clearly.

Northrop provides a very clear analysis of this problem whereby
Western philosophy has its emphasis upon the theoretically designated
and inferred factor (i.e. scientifically) in things as opposed to the
philosophy of the Orient which has its attention upon things in their
aesthetic immediacy. ( Northrop, The Meeting of...p437).

This appears to lie at the heart of the menu/ food distinction. In the
West: something immediately experienced is correct only if it is
theoretically proven to be correct. ( hence, for example the tendency
in political circles to (after an 'event') set up a Board of
Enquiry...to determine what actually happened. Consider the 9/11
Report. Are you any the wiser?)

In this regard, I also want to suggest that when Pirsig states that
metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a 30.000 page menu and
no food...don't you think he saw a bit of a challenge here??
Yes, language is a finger but the more accurate the meaning the more
direct your landing.
As Pirsig argues, it seems that, for children and low educated people
Quality is easily apprehended. They take the word to mean literally
what it denotes. Well...that's me...beginners mind.

Ron:
Both Pirsig and Aristotle?are doing the same thing ,a way of ordering
experience within a framework.

Andre:
But did Aristotle's 'Umoved Mover' bear any resemblance to Pirsig's Quality?

Ron:
Right, because there is no ultimate goal other than clearer meaning.
I think your mentor the self proclaimed st. Bodvar would disagree with you.

Andre:
St Bodvar can speak for himself and so can I. I'd like to think that
we all have mentors, past and present, one being perhaps more
influential than others. This depends upon the 'fit' of what the other
suggests with one's own experiences and analogues. And, Ron, you know
as well as I do what the best way is to complement the teacher.

Ron:
I think the self proclaimed ST.Bodvar ?would disagree.>?the static
representations ARE reality according to him, that is a Papal
Bull if I ever heard one. of Pope Bodvar the first.

Andre:
Again, see my comment above. For me, static representations are static
Quality patterns.

Cheers
Andre
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