[MD] The Upside down evolution

[skutvik at online.no]

Craig, Krimel, Andre, All.

18 Jan.:

[Andre]  
> > > What about Pirsig surmising that from rituals intellectual patterns
> > > may have emerged? 

[ Krimel ] 
> > Rituals ARE intellectual patterns. 

A criminal statement :-)

Craig:
> You're still off a level from Pirsig . Just as for him your social
> level of bees is biological, so your intellectual level of rituals is
> on his social level ........ 

This far, total agreement.

> ...........You are possibly thinking of modern rituals like the
> wine&wafer sacrament, where the ritual is symbolic of Jesus's
> sacrifice. 

"Modern" ritual sounds a bit awkward, all rituals are social and as 
Andre once pointed to, the wine IS supposed to the be the blood ... 
etc. Now, people who have intellect as part of their constitution will 
hardly believed  in it, but they suspend their skeptical mindset and 
enjoy the social feeling.     

> Pirsig is thinking of primitive practices: the hunting party returns &
> sets their kill before the alpha male, otherwise he kicks their ass
> (biological). Later, it becomes a ritual display for their leader
> (social). Finally, a rationale is provided in terms of taxes for the
> good of the state (intellectual). 

The social reality is a huge span of time, and since Homo Sapiens  
(whenever that was) till the Greeks (on the Western Hemisphere) it 
was "leading edge". Stone Age rituals may have been much like Craig 
says, but the later mythologies, like the Greek, were much about the 
gods - sacrifice etc.  

Anyway, I don't think Intellect emanates from rituals in some more 
special way other than the 4th. level being "out of" the 3rd.  We know 
how intellect emerged, it's told most convincingly in ZAMM as SOM's 
emergence out of the Aretê era and LILA confirms it.  

     Perhaps in Homer's time, when evolution had not yet 
    transcended the social level into the intellectual, the two were 
    the same  

"The two" are celebrity (as a social pattern) and Quality".  Krimel said 
when I pointed to this quote to Dave (18 Jan.)

> It's like you have Pirsig and Julian Jaynes confused in your head. Jaynes
> argued that consciousness or self awareness began in the time you keep
> harping on. He made this argument in the late '70 and almost no one but
> starry eyed seekers have taken it seriously. You have converted an
> interesting but dubious idea into something profoundly goofy.

I never quite get Krimel's attitude regarding the MOQ, if he is genuinely 
interested or just perfunctory speaks moqtalk to be allowed here at 
least "consciousness" (self-  or ordinary) have no place in the MOQ 
other than inside the 4th level. I mean intellect has coined the term.   

> Homeric times seem striking because the work ascribed to him, like the
> Torah, spans the gap between oral traditions and writing. Writing is a
> tool that gives intellectual patterns greater extension in time. Writing
> is to the oral tradition as bronze is to flint. But all four are part of
> the intellectual level.

Well, as all is "intellect" to Krimel  why bother, but in the MOQ there is 
a static Q-level called Social after the Biological and before the 
Intellectual and it is the Social-Intellectual transition we speak about 
and, inadvertently or not, Pirsig affirms the SOL (intellect=SOM)    

> We actual have terms in English that describes this radical shift;
> Historic and Prehistoric. This is not metaphysics or meta-anything else.
> It is an example of technology enabling profound lifestyle changes,
> nothing more.

If so - now that technology is available to every remote corner - why 
isn't all humankind "lifestyle" profoundly identical, why does f.ex. 
Taleban and Al Qaeda fight "Western (intellectual) Values" with such 
ferocity to prevent them infecting their Islamic (social value) purity? Oh 
yes the social vs intellectual struggle explains tons of present day 
SOM-induces quandaries (paradoxes). 

Bodvar