[MD] Re Proposed solution to SOL/Intellectual level

[skutvik at online.no]

Andre, John, Multitude

20 Jan. :

Andre to Krimel:
> > The notion of 'self' is an intellectual construction.

John:  
> Also Wrong.
> The self is obviously a socially-created construction, arising in
> higher beings than slime mold, and lower than intellectual humans. 
> Wanna guess? Need a hint?  Forgot already?  Just pay attention to
> those handy Mnemonic devices carried by the female mammals for your
> clue.  Pay close attention and enlightenment will come, I'm sure.

Mr. Pirsig:
    'The MoQ, as I understand it, denies any existence of a 'self' 
    that is
    independent of inorganic,biological,social or intellectual 
    patterns.
    There is no 'self' that contains these patterns. These patterns 
    contain
    the self. This denial agrees with both religious mysticism and
    scientific knowledge. In Zen, there is reference to 'big self' and
    'small self'. Small self is the patterns. Big self is Dynamic 
    Quality.
    (Annot.29, LC) 

Andre:
> I stand corrected by the man himself.

"SELF" in the self-consciousness or self-awareness sense is very 
much an intellectual construction. and exactly what Pirsig says ("no 
self that contains the patterns") This is what we have discussed for ten 
years with poor me against - for short  - the Steve mob. The latter 
claiming that all static levels (the MOQ) are contained by the 
intellectual level (in its own self-made) SELF capacity,  while I have 
tried to uphold Pirsig's above that there only are the level's own small 
selves. 

John's about "social self" is correct enough. People have always had 
identity, name and property knit to this, but we also know that there is 
an "intellectual self" above this which claims consciousness, i.e. a 
Super-Ego  that  surveys IT ALL. And it is this intellectual super-ego 
which is MOQ worst obstacle, it will under no circumstances 
"surrender" to a still greater ego (MOQ's Big Self) in which view it is 
reduced to the VALUE of the "subjective-self (slash) objective 
everything else" DISTINCTION..

Krimel's biological self is just as valid. Life isn't possible if the 
organisms didn't sense the difference between self and other. But 
Krimel and John are innocent, it's Steve (and Pirsig when in his "bash 
the MOQ" mood) who are MOQ's worst enemies with their claim that t 
the MOQ iss an intellectual pattern.  My jaw soon falls off by 
proclaiming that intellect is a MOQ level, not the other way round.

Bodvar.  .