[MD] Are theists irrational?

[MarshaV]

"The MOQ would add a fourth stage where the term "God" is completely dropped as a relic of an evil social suppression of intellectual and Dynamic freedom. The MOQ is not just atheistic in this regard. It is anti-theistic."
   (Pirsig, Copleston Annotations)
 





On Jan 20, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Bruce Underwood wrote:

> 
> 
> Hello all, I hope that you don't mind me jumping in on this thread, but here it goes.
> 
> Science:  Science, in my opinion, ask a separate question than religion.  Science asks,"how" and religion asks "why".  However,one thing that folks want to do is to make science into a belief.  IMO, science in merely a method devised at the intellectual level to ask "how" things are made, work, operate, etc.  Science is not something to believe in, but a set of tool to explore.  That said,it has become the "church of science",as Pirsig puts it, and has become something that people worship.
> 
> Religion:  Religion, on the other hand, firstly, attempts to look beyond the now into unknown world of "why", but where its rudderless obsessions of control, combined with ignorance, along with the thought "that man can know the mind of God" has placed it in categories of distrust and hypocrisy. Regardless of the fairy tales that have been created over the millennium, there exists the unknown that moves and organize things against the laws of nature.  In MoQ we call it Dynamic Quality. The thing is, MoQ, at least, provides the possibilty, with argument, for "God" to exist by whatever name you want to give it. The purpose of religion should be to move life forward and to give man hope.  Where faith comes in is in the hope that there is more to life than existance; I believe MoQ does that. 
> 
> The section below is from chapter 11 of Lila.
> 
> "Thermodynamics states that all energy systems "run down" like a clock and
> never rewind themselves.  But life not only "runs up," converting low
> energy sea-water, sunlight and air into high-energy chemicals, it keeps
> multiplying itself into more and better clocks that keep "running up"
> faster and faster.
> Why, for example, should a group of simple, stable compounds of carbon,
> hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen struggle for billions of years to organize
> themselves into a professor of chemistry?  What's the motive?...
> 
> The question is: Then why does nature reverse this process?  What on earth
> causes the inorganic compounds to go the other way?  It isn't the sun's
> energy.  We just saw what the sun's energy did.  It has to be something
> else.  What is it?... Dynamic Quality"
> 
> Theist, Agnostic, Atheist:  IMO, the only person without faith is the agnostic that does not search for the "truth". However, the one who searches for truth will always be disappointed as a theist or atheist unless he accepts the lies in either camp.  The truth is somewhere in the middle and is found in the journey itself.  MoQ is the closet thing that points to the truth that I have found.
> 
> My graphical representation of this found on slide 20 of the ppt deck that I provided a couple of weeks back.  Here is the link:  
> http://www.thinnerself.com/files/MoQ/lila-6a.ppt
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Bruce
> 		 	   		  
> <!--
> /* Style Definitions */
> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
> 	{mso-style-parent:"";
> 	margin:0in;
> 	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
> 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
> 	mso-layout-grid-align:none;
> 	punctuation-wrap:simple;
> 	text-autospace:none;
> 	font-size:10.0pt;
> 	font-family:"Times New Roman";
> 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
> 	mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;}
> @page Section1
> 	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
> 	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
> 	mso-header-margin:.5in;
> 	mso-footer-margin:.5in;
> 	mso-paper-source:0;}
> div.Section1
> 	{page:Section1;}
> -->
> 
> <!--
> /* Style Definitions */
> p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
> 	{mso-style-parent:"";
> 	margin:0in;
> 	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
> 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
> 	mso-layout-grid-align:none;
> 	punctuation-wrap:simple;
> 	text-autospace:none;
> 	font-size:10.0pt;
> 	font-family:"Times New Roman";
> 	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
> 	mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;}
> @page Section1
> 	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
> 	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
> 	mso-header-margin:.5in;
> 	mso-footer-margin:.5in;
> 	mso-paper-source:0;}
> div.Section1
> 	{page:Section1;}
> -->
> 
> -----------------
>> [Mark]
>> OK, we are not speaking the same language.  In my language, creationism was
>> created by the intellect.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> "Creationism" was an attempt to turn a social pattern of thought into an
>> intellectual pattern of thought.
>> 
>> [Mark]
>> Science is intellect masquerading as high Quality.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> Science is an intellectual pattern. It does not need to masquerade as what it
>> already is. Are there low Quality intellectual patterns? Sure. Pirsig's central
>> condemnation is that S/O intellectual patterns are of low Quality.
>> 
>> [Mark]
>> Why would the intellect place itself above all else?
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> I believe regarding the formulation of the MOQ it was Pirsig would placed
>> intellect at the top of the static hierarchy.
>> 
>> [Mark]
>> Oh, I forgot, you claim that science is not a belief, somehow it is real.  How
>> did that happen?
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> Science is an intellectual pattern. It is not "faith-based" as is "theism". I
>> have no idea what you mean by "real", but I don't recall making any such claim.
>> Both intellectual patterns (science) and social patterns (theism) are static
>> patterns of value.
>> 
>> [Mark]
>> I remember the PC discussion. We can agree to disagree.
>> 
>> [Arlo]
>> Of course.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 		 	   		  
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

  
_______________________________________________________________________
   
Shoot for the moon.  Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars...