[MD] Intellect's Symposium

[Mary]

Hello Dave and Bo,

Dave, I do not think Bo is debating for debate's sake.  Bo, I do not agree
with everything you say in every post, though.  Sometimes, Bo, you seem so
right on but other times I sit here thinking What?!?  The squabble over the
meaning of intellect vs. intelligence vs. Intellectual Level is good for
finding common ground, but there is yet more common ground to be uncovered.

Bo, I want to know your definition of subject-object logic.  You state that
it IS the intellectual level, yet, by my understanding of it (and Dave's as
outlined below), this cannot be true.  So, either we misunderstand you, or
you are deconstructing the MoQ and the Social Level in particular does not
exist and all is Biology.

Let's try this on for size.  

SOL does not equal SOM.  
It is not SOL, but SOM which is the Intellectual Level (as you state, Bo).

Definition of SOL:
subject-object logic only.  No value judgments are implied.  It has existed
since the Biological Level.  Many species other than our own utilize it in
their thought processes.  It is evident, for instance, in the predator/prey
relationship.  Any animal that doesn't know the difference is a dead animal.
It is taken to a higher level in humanity, where we use it to invent complex
things outside of ourselves to solve problems we happen to have.  It is the
basis for religion and for science, being what we use to answer questions.
It is the basis for society too; for, as Dave points out, without a
recognition of "otherness", there would be no need for "rules of society" to
exist.  

If one equates SOL with SOM, then the MoQ is indeed dead.  Bo, I happen to
think this is not what you mean.  I think you are smarter than that.

Definition of SOM:
Subject-object metaphysics.  Value judgments ARE implied.  It did not exist
in the Biological Level.  No other species on Earth has it.  It is the next
logical progression of SOL.  It's what you get when you take SOL as your
foundational reality and then construct a Metaphysics from it.  

If SOM is seen as the definition of the Intellectual Level rather than mere
SOL, then the MoQ is saved.  The Social Level is constructed out of SOL,
starting out as a support mechanism for Biological survival, which grew out
of Biology to take on a life of its own.  Society evolved into something not
just to support biological survival, but ultimately to support its own
existence.  Ask any politician.  

SOM grew directly out of the SOL/Social.  It is objective thinking, but
where "objective" is now defined as an attitude rather than a simple logical
recognition of "otherness".  It does not exist to benefit Society.  It's
nature is to seek some kind of Objective Reality.  It uses SOL as a tool to
accomplish this.  If the objective truth it finds is supportive of society,
that's nice, but it's not necessary.  The objective anthropologist is a
perfect example.  

What do you guys think?  Does that bring us any closer?


[Dave, where > quotes Bo]
We see that we have a biological organism that is somehow aware of a pattern
of value "other (social)" on the higher social level which according to the
basic ground rules of the MoQ is not suppose to be possible.

But you already knew that.
The consequences of your proposal are:

All levels: Individual discreteness and moral codes by level. Gone.
Social level: Must disappear. Gone.
Intellectual level: Contains only patterns of intellectual value generated
by or conforming to subject and object logic.
The MoQ: Gone. Or on a newly emergent static layer above intellectual. Or
floating around in the ether, God only knows were, and he's not talking,
never has.

Do you understand now why so many are vehemently opposed to your
interpretation as you are for it?

All to accomplish what?

> What is it that prevents intellect to be seen as Phaedrus did in in 
> ZAMM - as SOM - and its emergence described in that book? Aretê then 
> becomes its parent. This way ZAMM and LILA are seamlessly joined, 
> instead of the present situation where ZAMM is some embarrassing 
> relative.

Maybe seamless joined but with the MoQ of Lila left in tatters. One sail
over 30 years old seamless attached to one ripped to shreds. An old Navy guy
like me would rather jump ship than to put to sea with that. Happy sailing.

Face it Bo you read, understood, believed, and maybe were even trying to
live by the Quality of ZaMM. 15 years later based on further thinking, more
research, feedback from readers, and greater maturity RMP expanded a
metaphysical sketch that was ZaMM into a detailed full blown metaphysics of
Lila.  You were shocked and disturbed by his "progress" and have been doing
your level best to change it ever since.

Regardless of your feelings it is quite clear which book RMP thinks is more
important,more valuable going forward.  Your ZaMM baby died. Sorry. It lived
a good life and supports Pirsig's.

Mary

- The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.