[MD] Science and Scientism

[Ian Glendinning]

Mark & Marsha,

Mark I too use "scientism" as a bogey man, for the same reasons you do
I suspect, even though I doubt we agree much on the faith-based
alternatives (but to be fair I'm reading you so far through the second
hand responses of others). I will try to read your latest.

Marsha, thanks for that - I heard you mention it before, but that link
is useful - must find time to listen, but a quick look at the
introductory texts is very interesting ....

"zealous policing of the boundaries of science only proved that
scientific materialism had hardened into a rigid and inhibiting
dogmatism"
Shledrake's words, but whoever said it, I'd agree with it.

Nick Maxwell in there too I notice.
Ian

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:23 AM, MarshaV <valkyr at att.net> wrote:
> Greeting Mark,
>
> This CBC series was extremely informative.  Many of the scientists
> interviewed held other than mainstream ideas and were often
> ignored or discredited.
>
>
> How To Think About Science
>
> If science is neither cookery, nor angelic virtuosity, then what is it?
> Modern societies have tended to take science for granted as a way of
> knowing, ordering and controlling the world. Everything was subject to
> science, but science itself largely escaped scrutiny. This situation has
> changed dramatically in recent years. Historians, sociologists,
> philosophers and sometimes scientists themselves have begun to
> ask fundamental questions about how the institution of science is
> structured and how it knows what it knows. David Cayley talks to
> some of the leading lights of this new field of study.
>
> Episode 1 - Steven Shapin and Simon Schaffer
> Episode 2 - Lorraine Daston
> Episode 3 - Margaret Lock
> Episode 4 - Ian Hacking and Andrew Pickering
> Episode 5 - Ulrich Beck and Bruno Latour
> Episode 6 - James Lovelock
> Episode 7 - Arthur Zajonc
> Episode 8 - Wendell Berry
> Episode 9 - Rupert Sheldrake
> Episode 10 - Brian Wynne
> Episode 11 - Sajay Samuel
> Episode 12 - David Abram
> Episode 13 - Dean Bavington
> Episode 14 - Evelyn Fox Keller
> Episode 15 - Barbara Duden and Silya Samerski
> Episode 16 - Steven Shapin
> Episode 17 - Peter Galison
> Episode 18 - Richard Lewontin
> Episode 19 - Ruth Hubbard
> Episode 20 - Michael Gibbons, Peter Scott, & Janet Atkinson Grosjean
> Episode 21 - Christopher Norris and Mary Midgely
> Episode 22 - Allan Young
> Episode 23 - Lee Smolin
> Episode 24 - Nicholas Maxwell
>
>  http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/science/index.html
>
> I subscribed to this from an iTune podcast, and it was free, but I think
> you can also download for free from this website.  Maybe some
> will find it interesting.
>
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2010, at 9:08 PM, markhsmit wrote:
>
>> Hi All interested,
>>
>> I have used the term scientism recently, much to some
>> individuals distaste.  I am not using that term in a
>> discriminatory fashion, as I myself am a scientist.  I use
>> it to express a very real belief system.  So let me briefly
>> explain.  I looked up the term on Wiki just before
>> writing this, since it seems that many use that
>> as a truth reference.  I do not go along with the
>> battle stance of the article, but it gives a useful
>> description.
>>
>> Science is a useful tool.  It provides for many things
>> which enhance our survival, comfort, and enjoyment.
>> Within science I include applied science, such as
>> engineering.
>>
>> Scientism on the other hand is the blind faith that
>> science provides the best, and perhaps only
>> true interpretation of the world.  This is held by
>> scientists and non-scientists.  The rules of scientism
>> are very narrow, and dogmatic.  Indeed, it is a
>> fast tenant that if science cannot measure it, it
>> does not exist.  Scientism does allow for growth in
>> that if something becomes measurable it does
>> exist.  A good example is the ghost of gravity that
>> Pirsig discusses.  Within scientism I am including
>> the impact of science on such disciplines as
>> psychology, economics, and personal experience.
>> The faith in science is abused by those who are
>> trying to get what they want.
>>
>> Scientism depends on objectivity.  Everything it
>> describes is at arms length.  Its proliferation is
>> one of the key reasons why SOM has become much
>> more dominant than it used to be.  While it does have
>> some sense in the object it describes, it has no say
>> in the personal experience.  This is in the realm of
>> spiritualism.  Because of the hold of scientism on
>> our lives, be believe that our experience in this world
>> is purely due to the objective world.  For example
>> the notion that the way to be happy is to make more
>> money.  Money has nothing to do with happiness, and
>> for those that it does, they have replaced an inner feeling
>> with an object.  This kind of consumption becomes
>> endless, because there is no way it can fulfill.
>>
>> So, along with scientism, and its preachers, has evolved
>> a world of objectivism.  I have said before that for every
>> term in psychology in English, there are forty in Sanskrit.
>> We have lost the ability to experience ourselves directly.
>> A good example is Richard Dawkins.  He denies the existence
>> of God using objective reasoning.  He has no idea what he
>> is talking about.  Now, if he had been a devote Christian
>> and now was arguing against it, then I might listen.  However
>> nothing of the sort has happened.  Yes, a god maybe does
>> not exist in the world of scientism, but that is simply one of
>> scientism's beliefs.  Science does not have the tools to measure a god.
>>
>> So let me say to those who claim that spirituality does not
>> exist in as real a way as, say, an airplane.  You are doing
>> battle with windmills.  You are fighting your own demons.
>> There is no end to that no matter how many tools of
>> scientism you use.  They are the wrong tools.  The Kingdom
>> of Science is not what it appears to be.
>>
>> I will end with some lyrics of Jeff Tweedy from "Wishful Thinking"
>> by Wilco.
>>
>> "Fill up your mind with all it can know
>> Don't forget that your body will let it all go
>> Fill up your mind with all it can know
>> 'Cause what would love be without wishful thinking"
>>
>> Cheers
>> Mark
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