[MD] the sophists

[John Carl]

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 6:53 PM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:

> Aww c'mon man, we're supposed to bat this round a bit.
> You are usually pretty good at coming at it from interesting angles.
>
> I've been reading up on Plato's "Protagoras" , Sophists"
> ect., because they are pretty good case histories on the question
> at hand.
>
>
Case history is what is usually taught.  The teacher shares their method of
finding and creating quality and it is hoped in the transmission of static
Quality, Dynamic Quality will follow.

It is hoped.

But really, this is completely uncontrollable, unquantifiable, undefinable.
 For I know of no sure way to get from sq to DQ.  If there was, I think this
discussion in particular and academia in general would look far different
than it does.

For every moment requires a subtle difference in requirement.  Time is the
problem.  DQ is always momentous in a moment and that moment requires the
student and the teacher to remain aloof from attachment to the very sq that
got them there in the first place.  DQ can't be taught, but a person can be
taught to open  themselves to the possibility and recognize it when it
comes.




> By reading Bob's 1961 paper regarding teaching Quality
> I really got the feeling he does believe it may be taught.
> While this teaching involves a certain amount of unlearning,
> it should'nt be understood as not learning.
> In the martial arts it's taught as formless form.
> -ron
>


I agree a good teacher can prepare the soil, but the seed comes from the
same mysterious place that a hypothesis comes from.

I think Pirsig's simple formulation "Quality can't be defined BUT you know
what it is" accomplishes the whole job - it divorces the student from
attachment to the rote following of rules at the same time reassuring her
that this goal, while undefinable, is obtainable.

Such a double-bind is identical to the "formless form" pursued by Eastern
wisdom and puts the student in a crisis that requires them to make the
transcendant leap to a new level.

And the role of the teacher is vital in this pursuit, to confirm the static
latches gained.  Without the social confirmation of intellectual quality,
intellectual quality just flows away like ripples on a river.

DQ can't be taught, only realized.
In order to be realized, DQ requires a teaching.

There.

I feel better now.


I feel like reposting that poem on silk I photographed on the temple of
Memory from the Burning Man 2007.

 Author unknown, poem burned up.  DQ remains.

swallow.

every petal

dissolves

into the fog

conceived

from lungs to lips,

escaping in a sigh of relief.

midnight feels like

forever

from here

(in this moment) ;

a lifetime, death, and eternity

twisted together

in a split silk rope

we are

momentary in nature,

but monumental in a moment,

creating ripples in the

earthen vibrations

          that flutter through

empty     space,

organizing a rhythmic clutter into human art.

our legacy is left in grassy wire mesh

glinting beneath some sunlight

just off   somewhere we'll never  see

as it melts

and runs

in a homogeneous stream through

veins and nerves

we breath softly,

steaming up the windowglass

and shading the other side

of death.

-----------


I just love that line, "we are momentary in nature, but monumental in a
moment".  It sticks in my mind and pops out often.

Have you heard of Elisabet Sahtouris <http://www.sahtouris.com/>?  Biologist
and futurist and profound thinker?  Heard an interview with here and got all
excited by her explication of the individual vs. collective
tensions in nature, in cells and organs.  In Butterflies.

We will bat it around some more.  Especially the butterfly metaphor seems
particularly apt to the purpose and intention of this discussion group.

J Carl


> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Carl <ridgecoyote at gmail.com>
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 10:42:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] the sophists
>
> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 6:12 AM, X Acto <xacto at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John:
> >  DQ can't be taught, only realized.
> >
> > Ron:
> > One may be taught to realize it.
> >
>
> Hey, you're right!  I just realized that!
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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