[MD] my question

[Mary]

Hi John,


Mary

- The most important thing you will ever make is a realization.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-
> bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of John Carl
> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 8:11 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] my question
> 
> Hi Marsha,
> 
> It's an interesting distinction between feeling and functionality.  I
> never
> thought of them in terms of each other till I found the idea in ZAMM.
> That
> when I FEEL I've got the rotisserie right, then I do.  A feeling that
> comes
> from a fully functioning worldview and that feeling is all the
> functionality
> anybody needs or can get.
> 
> But I sense you're seeking something more.  Another way of putting it
> is
> you'd like some good reasons, besides feeling, why the definition of
> SOM
> should or should not be the intellectual level.
> 
> I think good feeling has to have good reason, or the whole thing falls
> apart.
> 
> Marsha:
> >
> 
> 
> > My question wasn't about who gets to FEEL better because they are
> > proven right, it was a question about functionality.  I do not see
> how the
> > intellectual level being SOM, or not, matters functionally to whether
> or
> > not
> > one lives a better life?   To me, RMP is not teaching a dogma, but is
> > demonstrating value awareness and suggesting that this awareness
> > improves living.   If the Intellectual Level being SOM can be
> detrimental
> > to living a better life, please tell me how?
> >
> 
> Well, there are a few issues to disentangle.  Like what does better
> mean?


[Mary Replies] 
To me, the real question is what does worse mean?  That one is easier for
everybody to answer.  I wonder why?  A false question but in no way designed
to trip you up, just asking.  I know why.  DQ is unknown and undefinable,
but SQ is not.  I absolutely know what worse would be.  I'll bet you do too.
Better?  That is in the realm of the yet to be experienced.  But I'm looking
for it.


>  Intellectual satisfaction seems to be a goal that many intellectuals
> pursue, independent of any normal measure of betterness of social
> recognition in terms of money or fame.  I expand the "intellectual"
> beyond
> the normal boundaries of intellect to include music and art, and there
> are
> millions in history and today pursuing visions of this higher order
> quality,
> even though there's no reasonable way to say their pursuits and
> achievments
> award them with any sort of "better" , except their feelings on the
> matter.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
As we heard and hopefully absorbed, "art is endeavor".  Not 'an' endeavor,
or endeavor toward a known, specific end point.  Don't remember the old saw,
but the thing is in the journey, not the arrival.  Something like that.

> And now, the professor will expound:
> 
> You see.  Peace of mind really is the whole thing,
> 
> Now, to anticipate your next question.  How does the idea of SOM being
> the
> intellectual level, diminish our peace of mind?
> 
> I'll fire 'em off as fast as I can think of them
> 
> 1)  it seems to me to absolutize the intellectual level, a very narrow
> way
> of thinking.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
What's wrong with that?  Are you attached to the Intellectual Level?  Does
it need defending?  Expanding?  Don't you want something better than that?

> 2)  It diminishes art and higher math's intuitive side - music, and
> their
> role in human thought and evolution.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
Art exists at all levels.  It is not owned by the Intellectual.  In fact,
the Intellectual devalues most art if "art" is used in the conventional
sense you may be using.  But Pirsig says art is endeavor.  That says to me
that art is any endeavor taken on in good faith.  You believe in what you
are doing.  That is art.  In that sense, science properly done is art.  The
poor guy in the middle ages who attempted to count all the angels that could
fit on the head of a pin.  He was doing art.  Not because it was beautiful
or admired, though it may have been at the time or not, but because it was a
noble cause he undertook in a spirit of belief in what he was doing.  Art is
committed endeavor.  A good marriage could be art.

> 3)  It lacks true intellectual rigor - it's an idea unacceptable to
> some of
> the best minds on this forum, and imo, the author himself.  Thus its a
> disharmonizing idea.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
You must understand the nature of the problem before the solution is
valuable.  Most of the best minds on this forum could be better still if
they would choose to take down their defenses.  Humility, abasement.  We
have replaced belief in God with belief in ourselves, and this is good for
we are good.  We are children of Quality, but we must realize that we are
not ultimate Quality.  We are provisional.

> 4)  It seems ridiculous to suddenly cast your story's villain in the
> role of
> hero.  The 4th level is the apex of evolutionary development, cannot be
> SOM,
> the bug-a-boo ghost of reason thrashed thoroughly in ZAMM.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
If there were already something better than SOM prior to Pirsig, he would
not have felt such a need to develop something better.  SOM is wonderful!
It is powerful, potentially and really helpful, and the way out of the
Social straightjacket.  It is not ultimate Quality, ultimate Values,
ultimate Morals.  To transcend the Social, it denies the existence of all of
these.  It has to because the Social corrupted their meaning.  It is better
than what we had before, but it is not the Best.  There is room for
improvement and that should give us hope, not despair.

> 5)  I can't think of a single reason, why viewing it Bo's way, would be
> better or more cohesive.
> 
[Mary Replies] 
SOM is ego driven.  That is not what you really want.  To satisfy your ego,
and me to satisfy mine, is to sell ourselves short.  To settle.  The
intellectual level cannot comprehend transcendence.  Transcendence is beyond
intellect.  If we have it all worked out, why are you here?  What are you
seeking if the Intellectual encompasses all?  You should be satisfied and
you should already have peace of mind.

Best,
Mary

PS.  I case any of you should remember.  Ken's oldest sister died yesterday.
There is only one left now.