[MD] False Messiah

[david buchanan]

Scott said:
I notice the only theist you quote is Tillich. And he, of course, is a good 
example of what I am trying to say, namely that theists are changing away 
from the sort of stuff that the rest of these quotes are objecting to. Given 
that Tillich is probably the most influential Protestant theologian (except, 
perhaps, Barth) of the 20th century, I don't think one can say this is an 
isolated sentiment. So I repeat: theism is changing, you're not.

dmb says:
Actually, the Tillich quote is critical of "theism" as I'm using the term. 
(Belief in a transcendent or supernatural creator) As I understand the term, 
he's not a theist and is on the same page with Campbell and Wilber in this 
criticism of theism. In fact, Wilber was quoting Tillich and relating that 
to Campbell's definition of this problem. (That part is pasted below.) 
Notice how he is contrasting immediacy and "real religious experience" with 
the "interventions of God" and "the supernaturalistic heritage".  That's the 
difference between mysticism and theism, between living truth and dead 
dogma. I think that's what Tillich, Wilber, Campbell, Pirsig are saying, as 
well as many others that I didn't quote but will if you like. I think 
Tillich is on my side of this argument against theism in saying that God is 
not supernatural or other and that Thou Art That. The idea here is that, 
against theism, you are not supposed to be granted salvation by a 
supernatural act of divine intervention or the deeds of the unique 
historical incarnation of God, but rather to experience a realization, to be 
the Christ, to commit that central heresy against theism. I don't know. 
Maybe Tillich has to call himself a theist in order to keep his job or maybe 
the term means something else to him, but as I see it, he's an anti-theist. 
Do you think this might be a way in? Shall I use your approval of Tillich as 
wedge to crack the notion that my criticisms of theisim are unfounded? Does 
Wilber's use of Tillich and Campbell to make this point make my sources more 
persuasive. Did you know that Campbell translated the Upanishads and edited 
the Portable Jung? Did you know Wilber was the most translated American 
thinker (something like 20 languages) and you can get a Ph.D. in his work 
from places like Harvard? My point? These guys aren't bad. They don't suck 
too much. Dismissing their perspectives outright seems a bit unreasonable. 
Anyway, here's where Tillich came together with two of my favorite 
thinkers....

Paul Tillich A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT p374 (as its quoted by Wilber)
>"Things like miraculous interventions of God, special inspirations and
>revelations are beneath the level of real religious experience. Religion
>itself is IMMEDIACY [by which he means precisely the immediacy of basic
>Wakefulness or pure Presence, which is Spirit IN us, as Tillich himself
>makes very clear]. The supernaturalistic heritage about the suspension of
>the laws of nature for the sake of miracles collapses completely."
>
>All these Ken Wilber quotes come from SEX, ECOLOGY, SPIRITUALITY: The 
>Spirit
>of Evolution, and these can be found on pages 667-9:
>"Both Tillich and I are referring to the mythic components of Christianity,
>not to its psychic and subtle level direct realizaton, many of which
>approached a pure nondual understanding (as we saw with Teresa and Eckhart)
>Rather, it is the translation downward into 'mythic dissociation' 
>(precisely
>as defined by Campbell) that I am here discussing, becasue this mythic
>dissociation, particularly in regard to the Incarnation and Ascension, came
>to thoroughly define essential Christianity, divorced it from other
>religions, and set an entire tone for the culture it would subsequently
>define. God created this world, but our final destiny can be found nowhere
>in this world (the classical Ascending ideal of mythic dissociation)."

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