[MD] Petitions and Politics

[Horse]

Hi Platt

I've changed the thread title as this now has little to do with the original thread and I don't want 
to detract from the subject under discussion in that thread. Your co-operation would be 
appreciated. 

On 17 Apr 2006 at 7:32, Platt Holden wrote:

> Hi Horse, 
> 
> H: 
> > > > I did on the basis that I have met and talked to DMB. However, the
> > > > above, regarding Miller and his political sympathies is misleading
> > > > because there is no proper indication as to where Miller's political
> > > > sympathies lie. Only your insinuations.
> 
> P: 
> > > His signing of the World Can't Wait screed certainly indicates where
> > > his political sympathies lie. Your signing indicates the same.
> 
> H:
> > In fact it says very little except that that I'm against the war in
> > Iraq. I know personally a number of people who think similarly and whose
> > political affiliations vary across the right to left political spectrum.
> 
> I'd say the World Can't Wait petition you have signed says a lot more 
> than simply you're "against the war in Iraq." Do you disagree with any 
> of the following statements contained in the petition (taking into 
> account it is addressed to Americans)?
> 
> "Your government, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a 
> murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in 
> their sights.
> 
> "Your government is openly torturing people, and justifying it.
> 
> "Your government puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing 
> them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in 
> the dead of night.
> 
> "Your government is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a 
> narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.
> 
> "Your government suppresses the science that doesn't fit its religious, 
> political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations 
> to pay a terrible price.
> 
> "Your government is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, 
> the right to birth control and abortion.
> 
> "Your government enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and 
> ignorance.
> 
> "People look at all this and think of Hitler — and they are right to do 
> so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very 
> quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act 
> now; the future is in the balance.
> 
> "Millions and millions are deeply disturbed and outraged by this. They 
> recognize the need for a vehicle to express this outrage, yet they 
> cannot find it; politics as usual cannot meet the enormity of the 
> challenge, and people sense this.
> 
> "There is not going to be some magical "pendulum swing." People who 
> steal elections and believe they're on a "mission from God" will not go 
> without a fight.
> 
> "There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This 
> whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into "leaders" who tell us 
> to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving 
> every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people.
> 
> "But silence and paralysis are NOT acceptable. That which you will not 
> resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn — or be forced — to accept. 
> There is no escaping it: the whole disastrous course of this Bush 
> regime must be STOPPED. And we must take the responsibility to do it.
> 
> "And there is a way. We are talking about something on a scale that can 
> really make a huge change in this country and in the world. We need 
> more than fighting Bush's outrages one at a time, constantly losing 
> ground to the whole onslaught. We must, and can, aim to create a 
> political situation where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, 
> where Bush himself is driven from office, and where the whole direction 
> he has been taking society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and 
> can take responsibility to change the course of history.
> 
> "Acting in this way, we join with and give support and heart to people 
> all over the globe who so urgently need and want this regime to be 
> stopped. 
> 
> "This will not be easy. If we speak the truth, they will try to silence 
> us. If we act, they will try to stop us. But we speak for the majority, 
> here and around the world, and as we get this going we are going to 
> reach out to the people who have been so badly fooled by Bush and we 
> are NOT going to stop.
> 
> "The point is this: history is full of examples where people who had 
> right on their side fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. 
> And it is also full of examples of people passively hoping to wait it 
> out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever 
> imagined. The future is unwritten. WHICH ONE WE GET IS UP TO US.
> 
> "The World Can't Wait! Drive Out the Bush Regime!
> 
> "Sign the call now!"
> 
> If you agree with all or most of these statements, your political 
> leanings are not very well hidden.

I don't have to agree with all or most of the above in order to sign the petition against the war in 
Iraq. You might but that's entirely your problem. Many of the above statements are to do with 
the war in Iraq and it's consequences, others are more to do with US internal politics and thus 
are irrelevant to me for the purposes for which I signed the petition. Bush's hijacking of the 
political process and various other crimes along the way concern me not so much in a political 
manner but more in the way that I view criminal activity in general. 
A while back I signed a petition in the UK calling for Tony Blair to resign (for various reasons) 
which was sponsored by the Conservative party. This doesn't mean that I support the Tories 
because I don't. What it means is that I think Tony Blair is corrupt and a war criminal - as well 
as being morally bankrupt. This was a good enough reason for me to sign the petition.
Perhaps you think that you should support the politics of everything a petition has to say in 
order to sign it. I don't.
My point here is that I am signing a petition because of the _criminal_ aspects and not the 
political aspects of the petitions agenda. So my political leanings are irrelevant.

> 
> H:
> > There's nothing insidious about admitting your political leanings.
> > What's insidious is your unsubstantiated claims regarding Millers
> > political leanings and the attempt to associate DMB with those
> > unsubstantiated claims. 
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that anyone signing the above petition leans to the 
> left of the political spectrum? 

No. I'm sure there are many such as myself who are more concerned with the criminal 
activities of George Bush.

> 
> P:
> > > Did you check out?
> > > 
> > > http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20051203143218921  
> 
> H: 
> > Yes and this is what I mean by hearsay, tittle-tattle and mutterings.
> > Colin Sick offers no evidence for his claim - he merely makes the
> > statement. But as I said above, can you offer  anything other than
> > hearsay, tittle-tattle or mutterings to show that WCW is affiliated to
> > RCP. It is pretty obvious that the answer here is that you have no
> > evidence.
>  
> What evidence do you show that the referred website offers nothing by 
> hearsay, tittle-tattle and mutterings? I'll answer for you -- none. As 
> for further evidence of the World Won't Wait bunch being a front for 
> the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP) take a gander at:
> 
> http://www.zombietime.com/world_cant_wait_sf_11-2-2005/
> 
> So you assertion about my having no further evidence obviously misses 
> it's intended mark. Of course, you can dismiss the evidence if you 
> wish, just as many have dismissed the evidence of an abundance of left-
> wing college professors, not to mention the mainstream media. 

OK - I had a look so we can add another word to the group - innuendo. That makes 4 so far - 
hearsay, tittle-tattle, mutterings and innuendo. But as I suspected, bugger all in the way of 
anything that resembles evidence. So my assertion regarding evidence still stands. 
Is this really what constitutes evidence in the USA or is it just you? If it is then that could 
explain why you have so many in jail. Take a few photo's, start a whispering campaign, fire up 
a few blogsites and hey-presto - Guilty as charged m'lud!

And as for the left-wing professors and mainstream media nonsense, I'm sure Arlo can (and 
has) expressed this better than I can.


Horse