[MD] On Taxation

[Arlo J. Bensinger]

I've renamed the thread, since it far deviated from Indian values.

[Arlo previously]
You make some valid attempts at substance here, too bad you had to mar this with
the usual "fear-distort-ad hominem". I'll try to seperate out the legitmate
dialogue points, and respond to them. As for the rest, it continues to speak
volumes.

[Platt]
More innuendo, insults and childish cheap shots.

[Arlo]
Describing your "fear, distort, ad hominem, Wurlitzer, Pee Wee" tactics is
simply stating the obvious. When you've responded with substance, I've
addressed that straightly. But, here you use nothing more than another "Pee
Wee", to try to pretend that you are the victim, rather than the attacker.
Interesting, but obvious.

[Arlo previously]
Ad hominem, nothing more. Well, the usual boring "Marxist" fear label.

[Platt]
Fear label? Aren't you proud to be a Marxist thinker? In some circles, 
especially in academe, to be labelled a Marxist is considered a badge of honor
(though I admit some will deny their political agenda since the fall of the
Soviet bloc.)

[Arlo]
I am not a Marxist thinker. Any more than I am a Kantist thinker. Or any of the
many other people I've read that I think made some valid points and erred on
others. Your use of it is simply to paint my as some "gulag favoring
Stalinist". You know this, of course. Yet you do it and act all innocent and
astonished when called on it. Typical, and obvious.

[Platt]
I favor cutting all taxes, income, consumption or whatever.

[Arlo]
And how do we pay for the military and the police and the courts that use their
guns to protect "property ownership"? How do we pay for the roads, and the
public library, and the EMT services (fire, police, ambulance)? How do we pay
for the scores of diplomats whose job is (supposedly) to ensure foreign nations
stay friendly to us?

[Arlo previously]
do you favor bankruptcy for individuals (and, if so, why did the conservatives
pretty much gut it), and do you favor bankruptcy for companies?

[Platt]
No. Do you?

[Arlo]
Umm.... no. But when *I* said to get rid of it, you said that was "Marxist". If
you don't favor it, and getting rid of it is Marxist, what's your plan?

[Platt]
A legitimate use of police powers is to enforce contracts since a free  market,
property ownership and individual freedom depend on performance of contractual
obligations.

[Arlo]
Who determines what is "legitimate"? Democratic vote? Conservative ideologues?
Philosophers? Dare I say, "intellectuals"?

[Platt]
I favor private insurance to protect my assets. 

[Arlo]
Fair enough. 

[Platt previously]
Since I have no idea what you mean by "conservative orthodoxy" I can't  answer.
Why don't you define what you mean (be sure to cover all the  bases), and why
you think it's important that I answer such a really  weird question?

[Arlo responded]
Evasive. But let me say it this way, is there anything you agree with on Pirsig,
that Limbaugh would disagree with? Or do you feel that ZMM and Lila are simply
books arguing for conservatism?

[Platt]
ZMM and Lila are books about Quality, or didn't you noticed?

[Arlo]
Evasive again.

[Arlo previously]
Ignoring the expected ad hominem, why should I spell out "Victorian values"? You
have a copy of Lila, do you not? You were quick to respond that some "Indian
values" were unfitted for modern life. Do you feel the same way about Pirsig's
descriptions of "Victorian values"?

[Platt]
Evasive.

[Arlo]
Hardly, although your response is. (Note the expected "Pee Wee" here) Pick up
your copy of Lila (if I have time tomorrow, hell, I'll do it for you), and find
the sections where he discusses Victorian and Indian values (you must be
familiar with them, since you were SO quick to point out that many of the
Indian values Pirsig advances are "unfitted for modern life"), and tell me
which, if any, of the Victorian values are unfitted for modern life. Again,
I'll list them tomorrow, or as soon as I get a chance.

[Arlo]
Glad to know you support Bush's Marxist energy policies, then.

[Platt]
I don't.

[Arlo]
Good to hear.

[Platt]
Tax cuts are not Marxist. Tax increases are Marxist.

[Arlo]
You said any attempt to use tax relief (cuts) to foster certain behavior is
Marxist. Reaganomics uses "tax relief" for the wealthy to encourage certain
behaviors. Marxist?

And, if all "tax increases" are Marxist, how do you propose we pay for the war
in Iraq? (not to mention all the other legitimate, positive infrastructre
provided by taxes (e.g., police, fire, EMT, public lands, public roads, etc.))

[Platt]
Police powers used to guarantee individual property rights on which  liberty is
based are legitimate.

[Arlo]
"Liberty" has nothing to do with property ownership. The Indians were quite
"free", and had no property. Using police powers to protect property ownerships
is a social contract. It's "legitimacy" derives only from the power it gets
from our willingness to submit to the contract. Or, can you tell me who
determines what is "legitimate"? Ayn Rand?

[Arlo]
Who should govern our society? 

[Platt]
We the people with a minimum of government interference.

[Arlo]
Who determines what constitutes a "minimum"? Should the government provide
public roads? Public lands? EMT services? Public libraries? A military? Park
rangers? Highway patrol officers? School? 

[Arlo previously]
But here we see another great radio tactic, I call it the Pee Wee Maneuver.
You'll see Platt use it alot, and its always funny to see. It basically goes "I
know what you are, but what am I?" That is, demonize, demonize, demonize, and
then complain about being the victim of demonization.

So, let's add that to the Party Jester repetoire, eh. Fear, distort, ad
hominem, Wurlitzer, Pee Wee. You made some strides in this post, Platt, at
actual substance. Let's stick with that and drop the Party Jester thing, eh?

[Platt]
More innuendo, insults and childish cheap shots.  The Marxist thinker 
just can't help himself. I look forward to his next slander.

[Arlo]
Just stating the obvious. As in pointing out your use of another "Pee Wee" here.
Demonize, demonize, demonize, and then complain about being demonized. Typical,
and obvious.

Arlo