[MD] Fwd: An unwise discussion?

[ian glendinning]

DMB ... on the subject of whether faith is reserved for the religious,
try this ...
Ian

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Isabel Adonis <bobtwice at hotmail.com>
Date: Aug 9, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: An unwise discussion?
To: FRIENDSOFWISDOM-D at jiscmail.ac.uk


Dear Tom, theologists call it faith; economists call it confidence, and
economics does not function without it because money has no value without
it. In general, to talk at all about value is to talk about a relationship
between the 'human' and 'nature'. Money is a fantasy, nations are fantasies,
and international relations are fantasies, we humans have made them all up.
Your argument is like saying to Galileo that the earth does not move because
everyone knows that it doesn't, and if anyone disagrees they will be burned
at the stake. The 'realities' of human power and human 'knowledge' do not
function as explanations of nature but on the contrary have to explain
themselves according to nature and where they do not conform, there will be
suffering and foolishness and it is humanity that must give way. It is a
particularly dangerous fantasy to imagine that a mere thoughtful animal can
'possess' a piece of land such as a ranch. It leads directly to such
responses as can be seen on the news, where the mere presence of persons on
the land constitutes an attack on the person/ 'possessed land'. This land is
not your land or my land or even our land but rather the other way round -
we belong to the environment - but the environment will not press its claim
if we decide to leave.
Best wishes, bob.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Milner-Gulland" <tmgulland at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <FRIENDSOFWISDOM-D at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIENDSOFWISDOM-D] An unwise discussion?


On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:17:06 +0100, Isabel Adonis <bobtwice at HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>Hm, well actually it's funny how here as elsewhere the disciplines try to
>trump each other about the 'real' goings on - the 'underlying'
>'fundamental'
>causes - is it economics or psychology, or theology? 'It's all about oil'
>somehow matches 'control of weapons will decide things', all a bit
>materialist. Myself, I don't rate the fantasy of money any higher on the
>evolutionary or causative scale than the various Gods in whose names people
>are prepared to die and kill, or the fantasies of race and nationality
>which
>support them.


I'm afraid money is not a fantasy in the issue of international relations.
It is the provider of power, purpose and possibilities. It doesn't matter
how passionate someone is about a cause. The possibilities of fulfilling an
objective on the international arena or substituting it with another one
that achieves some kind of human satisfaction (eg. buying a ranch and living
away from it all) are all opened and closed by way of finance.

Cheers,
Tom



All these things, including money and property, are human
>cultural artifacts with real power in proportion to our belief in them.
>Academic disciplines also have their faiths, in minds , in rationality, in
>economic forces etc. It seems just as possible to see the conflict as a war
>of ideas, or cultures, or archetypes, and above all precisely about what is
>'really going on'. What does seem clear, is that no one has power over
>someone who is not afraid to die, and thus the roots of all power in
>violence are being exposed; the difference between 'civilised democracy'
>and
>'terrorism' turns out to be less than we would like to think. I did think
>it
>was interesting to see a pro Israeli, non-religious, American Arab so
>passionate and talking 'their' language.
>Best wishes, bob.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tom Milner-Gulland" <tmgulland at HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: <FRIENDSOFWISDOM-D at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
>Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [FRIENDSOFWISDOM-D] An unwise discussion?
>
>
>Funny how none of these ranters ever say what the Middle-East unrest (and
>with it, many other troubles world-wide) is really all about: oil. See:
>http://www.gregpalast.com/blood-in-beirut-7505-a-barrel#more-1466
>
>Cheers,
>Tom
>
>
>On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:56:19 +0100, Isabel Adonis <bobtwice at HOTMAIL.COM>
>wrote:
>
>> Recieved this link from a friend in the US. Dare we be interested in such
>>passion? Best wishes, bob.
>>
>>WOW !!!  Here is a powerful and amazing statement which played on Al
>>Jazeera
>>television.  The woman is Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from
>>Los Angeles.
>>
>>I would suggest watching it ASAP because I don't know how  long the link
>>will be active.     -   Ted
>>
>>http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null
>>=========================================================================