[MD] Dreaming and death

[Squonkonguitar at aol.com]

Mark said:
...Maybe it's because i have no theistic beliefs, but i would  have thought 
that believing in life ever after would make talking about  death more easy? 
'One day we will meet again and be happy in the arms of  Jesus'or something 
like that? I suddenly find myself fascinated by this:  Why, if Christians 
really believe they are going to live forever in heaven  do they avoid 
talking about people they have just lost like the  plague?

dmb replies:
Do grieving Americans avoid talking about the  dearly departed? I don't know.
 
Mark: This was something that came up with two different American friends  of 
mine. I was told that Americans find it difficult to talk about this topic. I 
 have no personal experience of it, so i got to thinking why it may be so? It 
may  be rubbish?

dmb: Never heard that one before. I mean, I thought we were talking  about 
facing 
our own mortality rather than loss.
 
Mark: We're talking about things related to our cultural perceptions of  
death i suppose. I didn't start the topic, so if i'm muddying the waters i will  
drop it.
 
dmb: Anyway, it seems to me that the belief 
in life after death doesn't  making dying any easier to talk about because 
that belief just makes death  go away. I mean, at some point the body will 
fail but it still promises a  kind of immortality and so death isn't really 
the end. I mean, this belief  allows one to avoid the confrontation with 
total annihilation. Non-existence  is taken off the table.
 
Mark: I can see how that would be of great comfort.

dmb: There's an old gospel tune called "Will the Circle be Unbroken"  that 
expresses the sadness of a Christian family. They're sad because one  among 
them does not believe and so they worry that the circle will be broken  in 
heaven. They worry that the one non-believer will go to hell for his lack  of 
faith and will not be joining their family circle in heaven. In a small  
church in rural West Virginia I heard the congregation sing this song. And  
my friend's family sang it in tears precisely because they imagined a broken  
circle of their own. I was impressed. That was about 27 years ago.
 
Mark: I understand. One of my US friends i mentioned is what you  call an, 
'Okey?' She was turfed out of her family because she would not  conform to the 
notions of her family's religion. And yes, i remember how some  grieved for her 
wandering off like that.

Mark said:
...Let's go back  to basics and see what happens? Myths. Gods. What are they? 
They are  socially learned sq patterns evolving our culture in response to 
DQ. Happy  with that?

dmb quotes from chapter 20 of Lila:
"The 'gods'. He'd been  watching them for years. The 'gods' were the static 
culture patterns. They  never quit. After trying all these years to kill him 
with failure, now they  were pretending they'd given up. Now they were going 
to try the other way,  to get him with success."

"Each person you come to is a different mirror.  And since you're just 
another person like them maybe you're just another  mirror too, and there's 
no way of knowing whether your own view of yourself  is just another 
distortion. Maybe all you ever see is reflections. Maybe  mirrors are all you 
ever get. First the mirrors of your parents, then  friends and teachers, then 
bosses and officials, priests and ministers, and  maybe writers and painters 
too. That's their job too, holding up  mirrors.
But what controls all these mirrors is the culture: the Giant, the  gods: and 
if you run afoul of the culture it will start throwing up  reflections that 
try to destroy you, or it will withdraw the mirrors and try  to destroy you 
that way..."
 
Mark: Nice one.

Mark continued:
Orpheus. Who he? Answer: a  metaphor. A social metaphor for DQ. Orpheus never 
existed. He's a character  in a story. A story intended to promote a metaphor 
for DQ, as all stories  were before Intellectual Quality emerged. But, as i 
said in my previous  mail, and which you have left out of this response, 
which is a shame as i  value your thoughts, some metaphors are better than 
others. They HAVE to be  if we accept the MoQ. Orpheus may have been the best 
metaphor at the social  level before the best intellectual metaphor at the 
intellectual level  emerged. And they all point toward DQ.
(There is even more than one version  of the Orpheus myth, which shows us it 
can be improved: if the Orpheus myth  is the best social metaphor, then there 
must be a best version of the best  myth?)
The Orhpeus lesson may be this: If you're too Dynamic people resent  and hate 
you for it, they don't understand and find it hard to deal with  you, even if 
they like you. This metaphor tells it like it is - it's the way  Humans are. 
It's sociology. The art of sociology is an analysis of sq/DQ  patterns...

dmb says:
I'm really not sure what you're asking here.  There are a number of dubious 
assertions used as a premise for the question,  but even if I accepted them 
for the sake of argument I still don't think I  see what you're getting at.
 
Mark: I'll try and clarify. It is a basic tenet of the MoQ that sq is  
evolving. The best patterns survive.
If we individuate all sq patterns it becomes possible to scientifically  
explore which ones are best. That is what the MoQ claims.
There is nothing remarkable about this - this is the MoQ.
This being so, some metaphors may be said to be better than others. I'm not  
saying it's easy.
 
dmb: I 
mean, its clear that you're asserting that some metaphors are  better than 
others and asking me to pick the best one.
 
Mark: No, the MoQ is asserting that some metaphors are better than others,  
not me.
This is how is goes if i have it right:
1. All sq patterns are evolving.
2. The best ones survive.
3. Therefore, some are better than others as a matter of MoQ (and  empirical) 
fact.
I cannot ask you to pick the best metaphor, because the best metaphor will  
pick you in a relationship with your own level of sq evolution.
However, our culture will try to force us to accept the status quo. If you  
run off and find a better metaphor you may be heading for trouble.
 
dmb: I really don't know how that 
would work.
 
Mark: Values. You are values, and the metaphors society values as a fluid  
whole survive according to which are most valued.
 
dmb: And what do you mean by intellectual metaphor? As I understand 
the  term, a metaphor is a concrete image that refers to a spiritual reality, 
a  reality that is intellectually unknowable.
 
Mark: I'm not sure i agree with this, but ironically, this is what i said  
anyway: I said all metaphors point to DQ: 'Orpheus may have been the best  
metaphor at the social level before the best intellectual metaphor at the  
intellectual level emerged. And they all point toward DQ.'
It is the MoQ, not me, which individuates social patterns from intellectual  
patterns, and i am merely exploring the topic under discussion from the  
perspective of the MoQ.
The MoQ is itself an intellectual metaphor, and the best one yet invented  in 
my opinion.
An intellectual metaphor uses abstract symbols to describe reality as  sq, 
(maths, philosophy, etc.) but they all point to DQ.
Social metaphors, like religion, laws, describe reality as sq, but point  
toward DQ.
 
 
dmb: And metaphors are not better or 
worse so much as they are  culturally appropriate. A metaphor can become 
obsolete as the culture  evolves and they can be misread as something other 
than a metaphor, but I  really don't understand how we can say this one is 
better than that  one.
 
Mark: But this is precisely the MoQ project. Pirsig referred to  metaphors in 
the recent TPM on-line article. I cannot access it  unfortunately, but if 
anyone can supply me with a copy and the relevant quote i  would be grateful.
That which is appropriate is merely the current sq convention.
The obsolete is worse than the current sq convention, IFF evolution is  
becoming more Dynamic, better IFF evolution is failing to latch.


dmb: Except when it comes to my version of Orpheus, of course,  which is the 
most 
perfect thing the world has ever seen.

Ha HA, Ho  Hee, they're coming to take me away, Ha ha, ho ho, hee hee...
 
Mark: lol

Maybe I should add that Orpheus is a useful myth, I think,  because it allows 
us to openly discuss Christ without letting any of the  Christians realize 
what the topic is. Ooops. Cat's outta the bag.
 
Mark: Love it.

Nice chatting with you. Your wierdness is refreshing.  Thanks.
dmb
 
Mark: I will take that as a kindness, and i look forward to more of your  
views. But if you feel there is no more mileage on this road then i  understand.
Love,
Mark