[MD] New Model Army, Mystic(DQ) Experience, and Religion (SQ) as Power

[Case]

Ant said:
...Mysticism (i.e. being an adult when dealing with DQ) requires that 
independence of mind you're unlikely - though not impossible - to find in a 
social context (i.e. being a member of an established "religion"invented by 
some one else). Again, as I have said before, the Buddha points out that you

are best "seeing for yourself" regarding DQ.  It really is an important 
point in understanding the MOQ.

Ian replied:
I agree with you, despite the somewhat begrudging "though not impossible" 
:-) ...I think you are really talking about the quality of diffferent social

contexts,...

dmb says:
Hang on a minute. Let's pause for a moment to examine this little fragment. 
I think you've been playing a little trick on me for a while and now you're 
doing it to Ant. Why say he's begrudging anything? He'd already said it was 
unlikely, which already means its possible. Adding that it is also NOT 
IMpossible not only reiterates what's already been said, it uses a double 
negative for emphasis - and dashes too -. See, I think the trick is to paint

your opponent as more kind of absolutist, someone who lacks subtlety, sees 
things in black and white terms and as a generally unreasonable person.

But I think its completely unfair and inaccurate to construe it that way. 
There is nothing absolutist about that sentence, either in style or 
substance. I think its quite unreasonable to suggest that Ant's statement 
was unreasonable. Naturally, I don't like it much when you do it to me 
either. Its logically bogus and amounts to nothing more than mere insult.

Also, it seems that you missed the point. You say you agree, but its tough 
to see that in the explanations that follow. I don't think "seeing for 
yourself" is a matter of picking one static interpretation over the other, 
meta or not. The Buddha was refering to direct experience, not a static 
intellectual evaluation.

[Case]
I think it is wrong to say that mysticism "... requires that independence of
mind you're unlikely - though not impossible - to find in a social context"
>From tribal dancing and glossilalia to Gregorian chants and Raves, people
find mystical expression in social contexts. In many cases independence of
mind hinders mystical experience.