[MD] Individual v Collective

[ian glendinning]

Mike,

I share your view that the emergence of intellect and the emergence of
(conscious) self-awareness are co-evolved ... (and the entanglement of
this self distinct from the collective confusing the picture of the
social & intellectual levels is the reason for this thread ...)

But you're not suggesting humans had no such self-awareness before
Descartes are you ? Yes Descartes analysed and tried to formalise it,
and probably kicked-off a period of obsession with the mental subject
distinct from physical objects - so he influenced how subsequent
culture viewed that self-awareness, but it didn't evolve with him ...
languages still used "I", "me" "we" "they" "it" concepts before then
didn't they ?

Or am I misunderstanding you ?

Ian

On 8/16/06, Michael Hamilton <thethemichael at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> While I agree with (and like) Arlo's point about collective emergence,
> I still want to stick to my (now somewhat rusted) guns about the
> emergence of what we're calling 'intellect' being closely related the
> emergence of _a sense of_ individuality and the sense of the human
> self as an atomised unit. What I'm suggesting is that, rather than the
> 4th level being about individuals, it has a great deal to do with
> individuals being aware of themselves _as individuals_, with their own
> unique subjective preferences, beliefs and foibles. Self-awareness.
>
> While it's good to be reminded that we are all tied together by our
> participation in the cultural mythos, we shouldn't dismiss the sense
> of individuality as an illusion, or (to use a phrase from Paul's blog)
> as an entirely maladaptive belief. Sure, it can have maladaptive
> consequences when we forget about the mythos and the vital
> interdependence of all life of Earth. But self-awareness,
> self-consciousness, the sense of individuality, respresents a big
> evolutionary leap from the 'tribal consciousness' that manifests
> itself both in the emergent behavior of ant colonies and in Hitler's
> brutal subordination of the individual to the interests of the
> Volksgemeinschaft (people's community).
>
> I still think it's no coincidence that this self-awareness emerged at
> around the same time as science really took off. I remember hearing
> somewhere that Descartes' over-arching project was to create a 'solid
> philosophical foundation for the sciences'. Whether he succeeded or
> not, I reckon he was the main philosopher in bestowing subjective
> awareness upon members of the Western mythos - and one of the key
> culprits in entrenching SOM so far into the mythos that it has become
> a maladaptive belief.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 8/14/06, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:
> > Ian, SA, Squonk, All...
> >
> > At the risk of restating SA's caution, I think the "individual-collective" split
> > is a largely false one. Especially considered as somehow (in any way) related
> > to the "social-intellectual" level distinction. ALL MOQ levels contain
> > "individuals", and as those "individuals" engage "collectively" the next level
> > up emerges.
> >
> > Individual biological patterns emerge out of the collective activity of
> > individual inorganic patterns.
> >
> > Individual social patterns emerge out of the collective biological activity.
> >
> > Individual intellectual patterns emerge out of the collective social activity.
> >
> > To say that "one level is (more) individual and another is (more) collective" is
> > a fool's quest to grant power to one half of a dialogic pair.
> >
> > As for the social-intellectual description, I have come to see one problem being
> > that we use "intellectual patterns" (symbols) to bound social-level activity,
> > and as such confuse the intellectual concept from the activity it seeks to
> > describe. "Family", I believe, is an intellectual pattern (as specifically
> > formulated) that seeks to conceptualize particular social behavioral patterns.
> > "The Church", as a symbolic term, is an intellectual pattern that describes
> > social level patterns of behavior. In the same way that an "atom" is an
> > intellectual pattern describing particular inorganic pattterns. "Business", to
> > use a final example, as the "buying and selling of things" is an intellectual
> > formulation of social level activity.
> >
> > The trouble is, that because we are part of the collective activity that gives
> > rise to intellectual patterns we think we "own" them. In the same way the cell
> > must feel it "owns" the body. Now, the cell is a vital part of the body, but it
> > is not the body. "Calculus", an intellectual pattern, exists independently of
> > any one person. Indeed, it is a pattern that has emerged over time from the
> > collective activity of many dispersed both geographically and temporally. It is
> > a GIANT that feeds off collective social activity in the same way Pirsig's
> > GIANT (the city) was a social pattern that fed off collective biological
> > activity.
> >
> > The power of the emergent system is that it is not only bottom-up in generation,
> > but top-down in informing. That is, the intellectual level manipulates the
> > social level to suit its own ends, as a strand of DNA manipulates inorganic
> > patterns to serve it's ends. This gets close (I think) to memetic theory, where
> > memes are independent patterns who "use" (to use the colorful word) people for
> > their own propagation in the same way a gene "uses" DNA. (But, I am no expert
> > on memes, so I could be wrong).
> >
> > More later... of to a BBQ (gotta feed the biological patterns...)
> >
> > Arlo
> >
> >
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