[MD] Pressed Ham

[Laycock, Jos (OSPT)]

Some embeddments....

then
Disparage away

Jos

> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ham Priday
> Sent: 17 August 2006 18:02
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Pressed Ham
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jos --
> 
> > I think that your essence is equivalent to DQ except
> > that you more strongly resist the urge to name it as Pirsig
> > has done, thus it could be regarded as a more inclusive
> > term?
> 
> Do you mean "define it" when you say "name it"?  Or are you 
> suggesting that
> I should have named Essence Quality (for Pirsig's sake)?

I'm saying that naming is a helpful thing to do sometimes, whereas
"definition" will always be relatively inaccurate. If we mean the same we
should say the same.
> 
> > Personally I see unpatterned quality to be all inclusive
> > though, so if you go by what you guess I think I'm actually
> > alluding to rather than what the dictionary constrains my
> > vocabulary to represent.....
> 
> As I tried to make clear to SA, the "all-inclusive" concept 
> is a fusion of
> finite entities -- the equivalent of Pantheism -- and is an improper
> definition for Essence.  

No, this is your perception of my veiw of an "all inclusive concept", not
what I actually think.
What did I just ask you?

Essence is not "everything" because it has no
> "things".  Philosophers have known for centuries that the 
> "first principle"
> or Primary Source is indescribable, and most of them -- from 
> Aristotle on -- 
> regarded "the Whole in itself" as Being or beingness.  That 
> too is wrong,
> because being must be made aware in order to exist.  Which is 
> why Nicholas
> of Cusa came up with the "Not-other" premise.  "The first 
> principle cannot
> be other either than an other or than nothing and likewise is 
> not opposed to
> anything," he said.  God is "not other", because God is not 
> other than any
> [particular] other, even though "not-other" and "other" [once 
> derived] are
> opposed.  But no other can be opposed to God from whom it is derived.

No argument, perfect description of unpatterned quality.
> 
> > Can you describe any fundamental differences between
> > what you perceive me to understand by unpatterned quality
> > (DQ), and what you perceive to be essence?
> > (Basically I need us both to be psychic)
> 
> I don't understand "unpatterned" Quality any more than I understand
> "patterned" Quality, so I can't be very helpful.  To me, 
> Quality is like
> Value -- a psycho-emotional response to something 
> experienced.  

Right then we understand that we use words in a different way. Hence the
naming business!
The MOQ allows all things to value one another - emotions and the human
psyche only apply at particular defined evolutionary levels (but you know
this of course...)

Unpatterend quality is "the source", when it becomes patterned things exist.
In the patterns of existence there is static latching, (non temporally)
"before" static all is dynamic. All is not other.


It defines
> our subjective appraisal of the beauty, worth, or significance of an
> experienced phenomenon.  We don't experience Essence 
> directly, but we are
> aware of its value (to us).  This is demonstrated by the fact 
> that we cling
> dearly to life and continually seek a a ground in 
> "beingness".  The value we
> see in being and enact in choosing is our essential reality, but we
> experience it differentially rather than essentially.
> 
> I have no idea what you mean by needing us "to be psychic"  I 
> don't consider
> myself pyschic; do you?

On occasion, can you try empathy instead?

> 
> > If they are in fact identical then lets toss a coin and
> > pick one term or other to use in conversation?
> 
> It isn't the "term" that's in question here; it's the 
> concept, the ontology.
> Does Mr. Pirsig, for example, believe that his DQ is the 
> absolute primary
> source?  Frankly, he hasn't told us.  Does he think existence 
> is simply DQ
> partitioned into multi-level patterns?  If so, he's a 
> pantheist without a
> god. 

Yes, but so are you. (IMO, sorry) the pantheon are static things, DQ is the
one true God, worship af the pantheon is pagan backwardsness.

 Does he define or suggest a connection between the 
> individual and
> Quality other than saying "Quality is a better experience"?  

Uh?? are you mad?
Experience is from quality, not the other way around.

> You see, I
> can't relate my philosophy of Essence to a theory that 
> rejects a primary
> source and the autonomy of man, and that offers no insight on 
> transcending
> finitude.

More explanation here please, intruiged but "autonomy of man" and
"transcending finitude" are these  quotes from something?

> 
> My views are heretical to DMB and others here who take 
> Pirsig's word as the
> MoQ Constitution.  Except that they don't agree on what it 
> means.  As a
> result, everybody is expected to speak Pirsiginian, no matter 
> what they
> really believe.  

I agree, so we must agree on a decent pidgeon moqean dialect with which to
communicate, translations from French always end up saying what we think an
english person would have said in the same situation, the literal
translation from French is probably a more accuratle reflection of what the
frenchman actually meant, with all the culturally derived colours patterning
his intellect.
consider
"a la recherche du temps perdu"
is this really the same as 
"rememberances of things past"
or did proust actually mean something more like:
"Engaged with searching for times lost" ????

This is what I call dogmatic brainwashing.  
> It's really no
> different than the Catechism learned at a vulnerable age so 
> that Catholics
> can grow up to be "good Christians".  I'm sorry to be 
> disparaging, but I'm a
> free-thinker who's learned by experience that one cannot take 
> things for
> granted.


> Best regards,
> Ham
> 


 
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