[MD] Pressed Ham

[Laycock, Jos (OSPT)]

Seems fair, might as well set out my stall at the same time, 
Jos' belief equivolents embedded, lets see how wide the divide really is,
I'm not speaking for Pirsig though so perhaps I'm in the frame for eviction
as well!

In summary Ham, I see your system as very complete and well thought out, but
my problem with it is you seem to have constructed it with a purpose in mind
rather than allowing it to evolve naturally. 
To this end you've "pruned" it throughout the years so that it's grown down
a particular path. 
IMO you want to "prove" self determinism and you want to set humans apart
from any other species. 
To me this is diagnostic for inbuilt cultural (biblical) conditioning,
whether or not you see yourself as theistic/atheistic or whatever. If people
told you certain "truths" as a child you are then totally unable to separate
those from later value systems.

This probably sounds offensive but I honestly dont intend it that way, I'm
really asking you to look at your own motives and reassure me that I'm
wrong.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org]On Behalf Of Ham Priday
> Sent: 18 August 2006 23:35
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Pressed Ham
> 
> 
> > 
> 1.  I consider the aim of Philosophy to be an unbiased quest 
> for the true
> nature    of reality and man's role in it.

I consider philosophy to be a name adopted by a diverse group for any
activity considered to be a probing of the nature of being, I don't see
necessarily this to relate to man's role. Science IMO is a form of
philosophy working within a highly specialised set of rules.

> 
> 2.  The primary source is an Absolute Essence that is 
> incapable of human
> description but whose value is experienced differentially.

I can name all things in one language, thus all things are descibed by one
ubiquitous data type encompassing all subjects, objects and nothingness
inbetween. The data must be describing something (as my view is primarily a
materialist mystic monism) so I'm looking for a lowest common denominator or
source from which all stems. This source or "material that underpins the
data" can be considered analogous to the Pirsigian undefined concept of
non-relative value or to to Ham's Essence.   

> 3.  Physical existence is actualized (by the negation of Essence) as a
> dichotomy consisting of two complementary value-depleted 
> contingencies:
> subjective awareness and objective otherness.  
> Metaphysically, awareness is
> nothingness; otherness is an insensible essent (differentiated by the
> intellect as beingness).  The interaction of these 
> contingencies creates
> "being-aware".

Existence is the pimary patterning of unpatterned source "material that
underpins the "data"". If we choose a good name for this source to be value
then:
Prior to patterning opposite values are infinitely divided and thus dynamic,
approximately equal, and co-incident. In patterning an intersection of
values occurs creating a realtively fixed reference point or a "static
value". 
If we choose another naming system for the "material that underpins the
data" a different anaolgy will make more sense, but both will mean the same
thing in absoulute terms. Both Objective and Subjective descriptions can be
valid for any given pattern of MTUTD, but no S or O description can be valid
for the material its-self.


> 4.  The individual (self) is separated from Essence and all 
> finite entities
> by nothingness.  (This affords the autonomy required for free choice.)

The individual is not separated from essence, I see no obvious evidence for
free choice and so don't assume it to be a given, also to me "free choice"
assumes cause/effect relationships which I also don't assume to be a given. 

> 
> 5.  All awareness (experience of other) is proprietary to the 
> individual, as
> are intellect, concepts, ideas, feelings, desires, and recollections.

There can be a single word used for an analogy describing the pattern that
is any interraction of one static pattern with another. 
The complexity of the patterns determines how the nature of the interraction
that is manifest. The word "cognizance" is a good analogy for the
interactions of  "the individual" (high level pattern/human/TBC) with other
patterns. "awareness" is a good word to describe interractions at lower
levels, at further lower levels of complexity "experience" is a good word
and ulimately "interraction" can represent all that may be left out of the
range of the other words.
> 
> 6.  Space/time is the mode of human experience.  (Essence is 
> not bound by,
> nor can it be described by, evolutionary process or the dimensions of
> finitude.)

I agree but don't see this as a fundamental point. (I take the veiw of Kurt
Vonnegut's Tralfalmadorians in "the sirens of titan", you'll understand it
better by reading it than if I try to define it now.) 

> 7.  Although Value represents Essence to the finite 
> awareness, and is the
> individual's true essence, it is not a contingency but resides in the
> Oneness of Essence.

I would use other words to say this:
Essence is not described by the belief, but the belief is in the Essence.
or, the beliver doesn't know what he believes in.

> 
> 8.  Truth, value, quality, morality, beauty, justice, 
> goodness and evil are
> all relative to the individual subject, despite having 
> universally accepted
> norms or empirical standards.
 
If one decides to use these words as analogy labels for various absolute
concepts they can provide a framework to relate all things back to the
source. This usage is distinct from individual usages or empirical
standards. Confusion will only be removed if we create new words that don't
already have existing conotoations. 


> 9.  The physical world is an anthropomorphic system in which 
> man is the
> self-deterministic agent that shapes its reality.

The "physical world" is an subjective analogy for a tenacious pattern of
static values, where "Subjective" and "analogy" are deriviatives of
cognizance (from above usage). 

> 
> 10. The purpose of life is to develop and nurture the 
> value-sensibility
> granted to every individual and to respect the freedom and 
> sensibility of
> one's fellow creatures.
> 

The analogy label for which "purpose" is used in this context has not been
sufficiently well described for me to know what underlying concept it
reprasents. 

> While I await your verdict, I would appreciate your 
> assessment at to where
> Pirsig stands on these ten points and how objectionable they 
> are to the
> dedicated MoQer.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Ham
> 
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