[MD] Quantum Physics

[Heather Perella]

>  Chin) This is what I meant by built systematically.
> In Zen, would 
> there be a recognized difference in inorganic,
> biology, social or 
> intellectual? 

     Oh, I see what you mean.  No, Zen has no levels. 
In the East and West:  MoQ clarifies, [MD] I show how
the MoQ not only joins with Zen but joins with the
West (science, technology, etc...).  The MoQ
clarifies, as some in history thought Dogen changed
Zen, but Zen masters, and others know Dogen did not
change Zen, he clarified Zen.  MoQ may not necessarily
be changing, but clarifying.  This clarification will
help avoid gumption traps for the time being maybe.

 
> Chin) This was how Pirsig saw it in ZMM. In the
> East, would 
> spirituality and philosophy be the same?  

     
     Masao Abe {who graduated from Kyoto University in
Japan and studied Zen Buddhism with Shin-ichi
Hisamatsu (at the Kyoto University a huge effort was
underway while he attended to make distinctions
between western and eastern philosophies), and Abe
taught Western and Eastern philosophy in the U.S. @
Columbia University, University of Chicago, Carleton
College, Princeton University, Claremont Graduate
School, University of Hawaii, and Haverford College}
says Zen is spiritual and Zen is philosophical.  The
spiritual aspect of Zen is compassion and being with
those suffering.  I haven't read this part of the book
yet, in detail, but Abe mentions this, and I also
quote, "In Dogen, we find a rare combination of
religious insight and philosophical ability.  In this
respect, he may be well compared with Thomas Aquinas,
born 25 years later." (Zen and Western Thought; Ch. 2)
 How would you define spirituality? 

 
> Chin)  Yes, Zen is philosophy, metaphysics,
> religion, “a way of life.” 
> Would there be a split between intellectual and
> social here, or would 
> intellectual and social all be one level? 


     Zen is a way of life, and intellectual and social
are not distinguished as in MoQ.  Where the MoQ
doesn't distinguish social and intellectual is when we
just say static quality, and leave it at that.  Zen
does involve a community of practitioners, and
patriarchs (those that personally transmit the
teachings of Zen; the master-student relationship) are
involved, too.  
     
 
> Chin) I do not disagree. This is how MOQ works.
> Would Code of Art not 
> simply be Quality, or Dynamic Quality, which would
> be the same?

      Well, quality is dynamic quality and static
quality, and yes, this would include code of art. 
Quality is to include everything, including nothing.

     [Chin]
> It would be the same Quality that created the world
we
> live in, and the 
> same Quality that allows us to recognize Quality,
> and the same Quality 
> that allows us to find the Real Self, that allows us
> to Quality 
> thought, Quality action, Quality life? 

     oh, yes, I agree.  Code of art is quality
realizing true self is quality.

     [Chin]
> What the MOQ does not say is 
> that the lower forms, or lower levels are equally
> capable of recognizing this Quality. The tree did
not choose to
> be.

     Static patterns, according to the MoQ, are values
latching to each other.  It is a value system.  Atoms
latch to other atoms because they value each other. 
This is evolution, as you put it earlier,
systematically founding itself on lower levels that
value and latch until we have biological level all the
way to intellectual level.  I would agree that human
beings are only capable of realizing code of art, but
this doesn't mean code of art isn't everywhere, at
anytime.  This is the same idea of Buddha saving All
beings, as in when Dogen says, "All beings are the
Buddha-nature."  When Buddha was enlightened all
beings were enlightened at the same time.  Dogen
doesn't say All life, he states all beings, this is
how Dogen clarified Buddhas message.  All beings is
sentient and non-sentient.  This is to avoid
homocentric, that is human egotism, which is samsara. 
To go beyond just human birth-death and to realize
existence-extinction, which all beings experience, and
then enlightenment is beyond these dualities, but the
return home is into this dualistic world as compassion
where suffering is.  This is where spirituality steps
in, if that is the same as religion, if not then this
is where religion exists in Zen.   


     [Chin] 
> This is the MOQ. It is what the MOQ says. The MOQ
> has become systematic. 

     The lower forms, lower levels according to the
MoQ are valuing.  I found dharma in Lila as follows,
which also explains how the lower levels value:  
     "Dharma is Quality itself, the principle of
'lightness' which gives structure and purpose to the
evolution of all life and to the evolving
understanding of the universe which life has created.
     ...within modern Buddhist thought dharma becomes
the phenomenal world - the object of perception,
thought or understanding. A chair, for example, is not
composed of atoms of substance, it is composed of
dharmas.
     This statement is absolute jabberwocky to a
conventional subject-object metaphysics. How can a
chair be composed of individual little moral orders?
But if one applies the Metaphysics of Quality and sees
that a chair is an inorganic static pattern and sees
that all static patterns are composed of value and
that value is synonymous with morality then it all
begins to make sense."
     Are you saying systematic is valuing?  Where does
choosing fit in here?

Chin) But, is this not also becoming enlightened? It
is what I am 
saying about Dharma, or at least Dharma as Hinduism
which is many 
varying traditions. The one important thing I see in
Hinduism as well 
as pretty much all Eastern philosophy, spirituality,
religion, would 
be the suspension of the ego. Anything that leads you
away from your 
small self.

     That's very interesting.  You said, before I knew
you said this, and I went ahead and mentioned this as
well above.  We are on the same path here. 
 


Chin) Yes, this is Quality realizing itself, and it is
Pirsig becoming 
enlightened. There are many paths to this
enlightenment; meditation, 
the pure love of Buddha or Christ, as Pirsig did with
his trip to 
the “High country of the mind,” walking through the
woods, or just 
simply chopping wood.And pretty much all this involves
finding the true self, the real self or beginning mind
prior to the influences of our culture, or the
influences of our culture including religion, politics
and education. 

     Exactly, and this is what I call quietness.  It
is an experience that is not silent and is not total
sound.  When I am quiet, sitting in meditation, I
realize something/nothing.  I call this realization
quietness.  This realization must be an event that
shifts our perspective in order we may understand the
deeper implications that come with, oh let's say
quality, where experience and practice can only
provide what Pirsig talks about, but even Pirsig
states it is not found in words themselves.  To know
this and be wise with this, are two different
experiences.  To realize and experience, as for me,
quietness has helped me notice these deeper
implications that books and thought can point at, but
what good is something if it can't be lived.  Have you
a Way to notice these deeper implications?


[Chin]
Without looking back through ZMM, it may have been
Phaedus that said this. Arete was a word that offered
the definition of Quality 
before the Greeks invented mind/matter,
subject/object, forms and 
mannerisms. He asked if the Hindu word Dharma could
mean the same as Quality. The Ancient Greeks did not
have to ask “What is the 
good?”, Indians do not have to ask “What is the
good?”, Arete, Dharma, 
Quality do not need to be defined. 

     Yes, this would be the same as when I say - just
be quiet.  Then, with effort, I didn't want to lose
this quietness, even as I talked.  For there was a
time, that I felt that as soon as I talked I lost this
quietness, this realization that happens when I'm
quiet.  I needed to keep practicing, and realized and
still practice realizing just how much all is this
quietness.  This has been my Way of noticing these
deeper implications without becoming disheartened,
distracted, and lost to what this quietness really
does mean, which for one, from birth, this world is
quiet.  This world talks, birds sing, and deer have
messages, but these deeper implications as to the
questions of life, the what's, why's, where's, and
when's are only understood while I'm quiet.  To put
these realizations into words, these realizations I
have while I'm quiet, are still a practice, and a
significant aspect of this wording quiet, is it must
be experienced or else the effort to live this quiet
can be drained, lost, and degenerate.  The head would
become too full of sounds/words and not this living
quiet that is to be in order to realize fully.


     [Chin]
Whether it was meant to be or not, Pirsig’s
self-reflection through 
ZMM appears to me to be an analogy to self
remembering; stripping away the influences of society,
in Pirsig’s case, Phaedrus prior to 
society bringing him back down to his ‘Sane’ self, his
socially acceptable self, through shock treatments. 


     Yes, without this quiet, I feel an insanity
creeping in.  This is also why I love the woods so
much.  A first hand perspective, a first hand real
experience as to this real life on this real earth,
not clogged with human, human, human ego everywhere.
     Shock treatments, sounds like this deep living
quietness realizing itself as the woods, koans, or as
a Zen master once answered when somebody asked, "What
is the Buddha?" and the Zen master said, "a
shit-wiping stick."


bright white sun shining in the snow,
SA


 
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