[MD] The MOQ's First Principle

[ian glendinning]

DMB, and DM,

Ah yes, that recurring old
social <-> intellectual
vs
collective <-> individual
confusion.

All I can say is this is why I keep saying debating better
understanding of the social & intellectual levels is never wasted.

DMB you said
The point is simply that bodies and social institutions are always going to be
involved where ever there are humans. The distinction between third and
fourth level values is going to be discerned by the intellect.

I think you highlight really well why this is a source of confusion.
Do you believe you have indicated how the social v intellectual layers
can be best understood, or whether it is in fact the best (most
pragmatic / useful) way to characterise these "cultural" layers ? As
you know I have my doubts, but I'm genuinely open to constructive
suggestions.

Ian

On 12/12/06, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> DM asked:
> Is not democracy about changing social structures and decision making,
> giving decision making to all rather than elites? Is this not about
> improving society, taking society from one stage to another? This may
> improve life for individuals but it is also about improving society's
> functioning.
>
> dmb says:
> This question isn't really about the difference between social and
> intellectual values. It introduces the distinction between collective
> structures and individual persons as if that determined which level of
> values was in play. Not so. Democratic societies are guided by intellectual
> values. Its quite alright that democracy is a form of government, a social
> institution run by flesh and blood people. That doesn't mean democracy is a
> social level value. Human Rights are protected by laws and courts and such,
> that doesn't prevent them from functioning to protect intellectual
> principles. Conversely, I'm sure there are millions of individuals who
> would, in confessing their beliefs and vaules, reveal themselves to be
> social level individuals - even if they live alone and have no friends. The
> point is simply that bodies and social institutions are always going to be
> involved where ever there are humans. The distinction between third and
> fourth level values is going to be discerned by the intellect. They not only
> preform totally different functions because of the evolutionary relationship
> they bear with their differing parents, but they have a different feel, a
> different quality. Or so it seems to me.
>
> dmb had said:
> Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association and assembly,
> freedom of conscience and all that sort of thing is aimed at protecting the
> freedom to think and say and believe regardless of whether or not society
> likes it.
>
> DM replied:
> But these freedoms are realised via social structures and will only be
> embraced by society if they are a benefit to society, so what exactly makes
> them intellectual? Is it a matter of what values benefit from these social
> structures? Is that a useful way to define this?
>
> dmb says:
> Well, I'd agree that a society that protects freedom of speech is superior
> to one that doesn't, if that's what you're trying to say. But a society that
> only embraces the kind of speech that benefits society is not the same thing
> at all. I mean, if freedom of speech isn't about the freedom to speak
> against the government or in opposition to any of the culture's values, then
> it's meaningless. And I suppose that any tradition that can be toppled with
> mere words probably deserves to be ruined.
>
> But the over-arching problem, I mean the reason you seem to have trouble
> with the social-intellectual distinction, is that you've confused it with
> the collective-individual distinction.
>
>
> thanks
>
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