[MD] Social Imposition ?

[David M]

Case

I see, I think this goes back to Pirsig's
discussion of causality. Sheldrake turns
this table too, and says mechanistic causality
is more anthropomorphic than seeing all
Others and object-Others as agentive and
purposive. And this goes back to quality-experience
as primary. We have no way to make any such
anthropomorphic vs non-anthropomorphic distinction.

David M

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Case" <Case at iSpots.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Social Imposition ?


> David M,
>
> I can't really stand to reread that chapter but he anthropomorphizes
> shamelessly. Talks about evolution in terms of its purpose. Says things 
> are
> evolving "toward betterness"... It all kind of works if you discount all
> that and go with the point he is driving at. But Platt for example takes
> this rubbish at face value and there in lies the disservice.
>
> Case
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
> [mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of David M
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:04 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Social Imposition ?
>
> Hi Case
>
> Not sure what you mean by this dumbing down claim?
>
> David M
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Case" <Case at iSpots.com>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] Social Imposition ?
>
>
>> [Platt]
>> You're guessing. In my experience, when something human is invented,
>> someone
>> has to be first. Pirsig agrees.
>>
>> [Case]
>> The real question is one Ham raised: So What? Forget about the origin of
>> writing for a second. Stick with Guttenberg; clearly an invention, 
>> clearly
>> attributable to one man. So what? What credit beyond acknowledgement is
>> entitled here? Do we all owe his heirs a royalty check? If Uga the cave
>> man
>> had invented movable type, his accomplishment would have been far greater
>> than Guttenberg's. He would single handedly have invented written 
>> language
>> and the printing press all at once out of his own imagination. A stunning
>> intellectual achievement, of no significance whatever. With no one around
>> able to read what he wrote and posted, he would not get much of anything
>> but
>> laughter from his cohorts. We certainly do acknowledge and reward
>> inventors
>> and originators when their accomplishments are absorbed into the
>> collective.
>> But we ignore as meaningless inventions and ideas that no one cares 
>> about.
>> So being the first is a dubious distinction. While I appreciate your
>> stressing of the importance of individual contributions the issue here 
>> is:
>> contribution too what?
>>
>>> [Case]
>>> I have definitely reacted against Pirsig's dumbed down version expressed
>>> in chapter 11. What about equilibrium and systems talk bothers you?
>>
>> [Platt]
>> It doesn't explain why. And it ignores individuals who comprise a
>> "system."
>>
>> [Case]
>> If you continue to rely on Pirsig as an authority on evolutionary theory
>> your level of understanding is going to remain severely restricted. One 
>> of
>> the valuable contributions Pirsig is attempting to make is to expand
>> concepts of evolutionary theory into the realm of social and intellectual
>> development. His dumbing down does a disservice to this. Your taking this
>> dumbed down version as gospel is not serving you well. I was rather
>> warming
>> to Dennett's characterization of Darwin's ideas as dangerous largely
>> because
>> any fool can understand them and their implications. Your comments on
>> evolution lead me to suspect that Dennett is wrong.
>>
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