[MD] Dawkins a Materialist

[Case]

dmb says:
Yea, I don't get that either. What sense does it make to criticize one kind 
faith from the standpoint of a different sort of faith? 

[Case]
Isn't that what you strive to do with mysticism. I don't see mysticism,
philosophical or otherwise as anything more than another brand of faith.

[dmb]
I guess I can only speak for myself, but it seems that distinction would be
entirely irrelevant if one is making a case against faith-based beliefs. 

[Case]
Just for old times sake let me once again point out there are no beliefs
that are not rooted in faith. But I warn you that is a boring topic and I
really don't care to beat around that bush again.

[dmb]
I mean, I've never come close to saying that theism is perfectly fine unless
its this or that kind of theism. When it comes to rejecting faith-based
theism, I'm really not that picky. I'd reject them all in favor of a
religous worldview based on experience and knowledge, one that respects
rationality and evidence, philosophy and science. 

[Case]
There are incarnations of Christianity and I suspect Islam, Buddhism and
certainly Taoism that meet this test. One can quibble about whether belief
in a higher consciousness is belief in God or whether say pantheism
qualifies as theism. But for example Whitehead's philosophy was taken up by
theologians who developed process theology. To suggest that theologians do
not favor these things is simply to be ignorant about theology.

[dmb]
I want a religion that makes sense and requires no faith whatsoever. Don't
you? I'm not talking about perfect answers or eternal truth, just something
that's not built on wishes or bullshit.

[Case]
Whether in religion, philosophy or science, you have to start somewhere. To
argue back to "first principles" is an exercise in infinite regress. You
have to start somewhere. You have to make assumptions. You have to accept
certain things as given. I regard this act of starting somewhere as an act
of faith. We have been through this before and if you don't like the term
pick another but the idea that some form of reason will give you
justification all the way down is more like blind faith than reason.

[dmb]
By the way, the lion poop jokes were not about religion so much as the 
paranoia of certain MOQers, who tend to take this sort of criticism as a 
form of persecution. As if such criticisms were off limits. Pah-leeeze. 
Nothing is off limits and anyone who is uncomfortable with being so 
challenged has no business in a place like this. 

[Case]
For the record I liked your thing on lion poop.

[dmb]
The problem with theists is not that they are stupid but that they are
anti-intellectual and or reactionary. This is where the social-intellectual
distinction pays off, I think. There happens to be a pretty strong
correlation, enough that one could make a generalization. 

[Case]
Not all theists are anti-intellectual or reactionary. The problem is that
the denominations that have attempted to be intellectually honest have not
been terribly successful because most people do not go to church to think.
One can certainly fault the religious left for incompetence but not for
being anti-intellectual.

[dmb]
Its like John Stuart Mill said. "Conservatives aren't necessarily stupid,
but most stupid people are conservative." We could substitute "creationist"
or "theist" or any number of anti-intellectual positions and it would be
just as good a generalization, I think. And the situation is even worse in
this context. I mean, I can't see how it would be logically possible to make
a case for theism or any kind of faith-based beliefs within the MOQ. I'm not
saying that anyone who says otherwise is stupid, but I'm pretty sure that
such a position would have to be based on some kind of misconception cause
it just doesn't add up.

[Case]
As I have said many times, I am not pro-theism. I just do not distinguish
between theism and "philosophical mysticism" in the way you do. When it
comes to all of this anti-intellectual this and that, as far as I am
concerned theism and mysticism are on equal footing.