[MD] Is Morality innate in the cosmos?

[Heather Perella]

Ham said:

> If there is a "fixed cosmic morality", there can be
no autonomy for man.
> This is Presbyterian "predestination" or the
non-theistic doctrine of
> "karma", by which those who do not follow the cosmic
course are considered
> predestined to be "immoral", and vice-versa.  In
Christianity, this concept
> stems from the notion of an "omniscient" God who has
foreknowledge of the fate
> of his creatures. 

Ham said:

If the intellect, consciousness,
and morality are all something we "tap into", then
what is left for the
individual as a free creature?   What is man's role in
the cosmos? Where is
the autonomy?  Indeed, what is the value choice?

I (SA) said:

Maybe the difficulty is in us trying to
place an origin for these things we call morals as
something definite, pin-point, and going from one
place to another place.  (Thus, the morals moving from
here to eventually over there.  A line.)  Yet, think
about astronomy
which states the universe has no center (and the
center is everywhere, both at the same time).
At one time some people thought the sun revolved
around
the earth, later the earth around the sun, now we
observe the sun and earth going around a black hole in
the middle of the Milky Way galaxy, and everything is
expanding from an event 4 Billion years ago - all of
this being of One place with no definable center and
astronomers also say - the center could be considered
everywhere, too.

I read ZMM, but I'd admit (and this means I am not
following the rules) I have not read Lila.  I will.  I
plan to get it within the next couple of days.  So
maybe Platt's and Ham's train of thought is hinting
upon something that I am missing, or I am providing a
fresh insight into the discussion that will not be as
fresh once I read Lila.  Ham has brought up some
points that I have copied and pasted above.  I copied
and pasted my input above, too.  The idea that if
intellect is fixed, if morals are fixed to the
universe and this takes away from human autonomy and
our valued freedom - this is what I am driving at in
my understanding and bringing some clarity into the
picture.  To use one path of insight, astronomy, which
states there is no center to the universe and another
way to look at the universe is - the center is
everywhere.  How does this fit into the discussion? 
Here is the answer.  We as humans have autonomy.  We
are creative.  Yet, we have boundaries in which to
play.  If I want to run up into the air with my legs
and flap my arms - it's not going to work.  Why?
Physics.  If I want to build a plane to fly - it's
will and has happened.  Why? Physics.  Physics allows
certain things to happen.  Yet, with physics we as
human beings may work with physics by using our
creativeness to eventually fly.  Now about morals. 
For morals to be of use in humans, in other words, for
humans to have morals, then the universe has morals. 
Where is the center?  Everywhere.  If we can do this,
then the universe is doing this.  There are
boundaries, and humankind cannot do anything it wants
to do, yet, with the application of our creative
juices - Pirsig's and others of an older practice
called gumption, we may pass these boundaries.  Does
that give us full rein and a freedom with an inertia
that will never, ever stop going wherever we want to
go?  Go where?  That is what I ask.  Value, morals,
ours only (humankind), universe and we grasp it from
the universe (the line logic) or maybe we need the
circular logic, which states what you see here is over
there already as well.  We can just type about what is
here and over there on the computer, while the amoeba
can't.  Is this an assumption about what an amoeba can
and cannot do?  Does an amoeba have morals?  If we do,
then we cannot suppress our morals tied to our reality
and whims of the universe whenever we perceive.  We
cannot build walls that lock certain understandings
from the rest of the universe.  Why can we not build
walls in our minds to do such things?  Motivation,
behavior, and freedom itself has all of me - express
me.  What of the boundaries that provides barriers to
a freedom that cannot go on and on?  Those barriers
have already been set and funnel our behavior into
what we have come to call: habits or consciousness
(mindful) experiences.  

I am just trying to understand where Platt and Ham are
taking the discuss.

SA  



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