[MD] Defining Art (was Churning Point)

[Margaret Warren]

Hello All,

I was encouraged by Leif's post as I've also been a lurker for quite
sometime and
have been overwhelmed by the volume AND and also the velocity of the posts
and have often refrained from jumping into the discussions because I know I
don't always have time to read and think about a response to some of these
threads until the topic has twisted into something altogether different and
the moment for my response has passed. 

But, here goes (I'm also an artist so this thread particularly moved me). 

Just this morning I was reading a basic and practical book on Tibetan
Meditation and came across this simple paragraph: 

"Our ordinary experience falls into a dualistic pattern: we divide the world
into the experiencer (I, the subject)and what is experienced (it, the
object). As soon as we have a particular experience, the I (the subject)
thinks about, or in some way considers, the experience (the object)."

It reminded me that the uniqueness of Pirsig's MOQ is to move away from SOL
and the impression I am reading is that we've forgotten about the mission to
drain the swamp in this discussion about Mozart vs. Farting. 

The Victorians 'exhibited' an African tribal family in a Natural History
museum and I'm sure at some point in time during the exhibit, someone on
display farted, and someone thought it 'artful' or at least
viewed/experienced it as Subject/Object in the same way we do with art.

We currently have plenty of movies in which 'farting humor' makes up a large
part of the plot. 

I've driven to Yosemite with people who just see a 'bunch of rocks' sitting
there.

At any given moment, our perception is based on our collection of
experiences and we each define 'art' for ourselves uniquely in that moment.
What we individually prefer or value in each moment changes over time. I
don't necessarily care for farting humor, but I do like digeridoo's and
Mozart - I have been with very intellectual friends who can make a humorous
and 'artful' moment out of an awkward, embarrasing 'farting' incident. If
that were filmed it would now be art about the awkwardness of the moment of
the fart. 

John Cage (conceptual musical artist) said: "Value judgments are destructive
to our proper business, which is curiousity and awareness."

Thanks, by the way, for everyone out there participating in this group. It's
always nice to find some intellectual 'chatter' going on day or night!

Margaret Warren
www.zeroexp.com


-----Original Message-----
From: moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org
[mailto:moq_discuss-bounces at moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of Arlo J. Bensinger
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:12 AM
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] Defining Art (was Churning Point)


Greetings Leif,

Welcome, your voice is gladly received, and understood.

When you say, "art is a term used for reaching towards dynamic quality, or
rather presenting dynamic quality in the static. It is ways of letting the
observer percieve fractions of the dynamic", followed by what I consider
exactly what I've been trying to say:

"Mozart is art  because it helps us percieve "the value experience", the 
"betterness" compared to ie otherr music with lower dynamic quality in it 
(typical your average pop tune, the dynamic quality is no longer to be seen,
only stable patterns remains) But without the supporting stable social (and
biological I would recon) patterns supporting it, it will not be percieved
as art. I would recon that there are alot of cultures that would percieve
mozart as Platt percieves farting."

I think we are in complete agreement. Escpecially when you end, "Supporting
vlauepatterns creates a "point of view" where one can percieve/ experience
the art (or quality) in both Mozart and digiderooing."

Which is what, I think, I have been saying all along. Or trying to. Maybe
even in your second (or third?) tongue you express this better than I have.

Where do you come to use from, Leif? From your name I'd venture either
Denmark or Norway? Iceland?? 

Arlo

PS: Don't be intimidated by the volume of posts, there are generally no more
than two or three discussions going on at any one time. 
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