[MD] MD FW: The intellectual level and rationality

[skutvik at online.no]

Hi David M.

On 29 Dec.you wrote:

> In the UK where secularism and science dominate
> I think we are more concerned that science has made
> us too materialistic (SOM with the subject dropped)

I understand your way of looking on the SOM: Minus its "S" it is 
materialism, but this kind sounds more like "consumerism". A 
materialist can be as ascetic as a saint yet of the said conviction. 
When I wrote my "Quality Event" essay I used Francis Crick (him 
with DNA) and his (then) recent book "In Search of the Soul" as 
an example of the materialist search for mind from/in matter 
(brain). My point is that this does not eliminate the "S" at all.

Idealism, on the other hand, does as little eliminate SOM's "O". 
This is represented by those who think that mind creates matter 
or - worse - that it creates experience. See, matter prevails.  And 
we have people at this forum who believe that the MOQ belongs 
to this camp. OK, what I try to say is that neither the "S" nor the 
"O" of the SOM can be removed - one is dependent on the other 
- only the "M" is dispensable.

> and people like me want to understand science in
> terms that do not rely on SOM.

I too "understand science in terms that do not rely on SOM", but 
definitely rely on the S/O distinction. There can be no science 
without it.   

> I suspect 
> that elsewhere you may have an on-going battle with
> religious authority and therefore dare not throw
> away the SOM ladder? 

This part of your message I am not able to decipher. Is "you" this 
person? Can you try again? 

> There is a danger of going backwards,
> but I suspect that going forwards is a going beyond of SOM
> at the intellectual level. Your views only represent a particular
> strategy it seems.

Well, as the MOQ profess to replace SOM it necessarily goes 
beyond SOM, but ..."SOM at the intellectual level" No and no 
again, the intellectual level IS the (value of the) S/O distinction. 
There is nothing more to the 4th level than the S/O unless the 
MOQ turns into a mess.   

Maybe the term "intellect" is the stumbling block. To so many 
people it means thinking itself.  

Bo






> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <skutvik at online.no>
> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 8:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] MD FW: The intellectual level and rationality
> 
> 
> > On 16 Dec 2005 at 20:20, David M wrote:
> > 
> >> Bo
> > 
> >> I suggest we do jettison SOM
> >> into the dustbin of history. 
> > 
> >> Lets say:
> >> rocks are patterns
> >> plants are patterns
> >> money is a pattern
> >> theory of gravity is a pattern
> > 
> >> we can all all thesae patterns SQ
> >> lets call change and emergence DQ
> > 
> >> and put them together and let's call it MOQ.
> > 
> > David M. 
> > I agree with your choice of patterns, the theory of gravity is a 4th
> > level pattern all right, but science and knowledge rests on the
> > subject/object divide so it can't be "jettisoned" without existence
> > dropping back to the third level (Dark Ages) and is why I am so
> > exasperated with those who think intellect can be reformed to
> > accommodate the MOQ. The S/O level must be kept clean and clear. The
> > MOQ is the Quality Meta-reality that contains all levels and must
> > necessarily be beyond - beyond intellect not the least.
> > 
> > Bo   
> > 
> > 
> >> DM
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: <skutvik at online.no>
> >> To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 4:54 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] MD FW: The intellectual level and rationality
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > Ian 
> >> > 
> >> > You spoke thus:   
> >> > 
> >> >> How could you possibly accuse Paul (or I) of working AGAINST
> >> >> releasing intellect from anything. 
> >> > 
> >> > Releasing intellect? I spoke about him hindering the MOQ to tear
> >> > loose from intellect's grip. Earlier you had written:
> >> > 
> >> >> > The lesson is to recognise the child-like simplicity, not to
> >> >> > learn something more intellectual, in order to unederstand. 
> >> > 
> >> > And I agreed, it's my very point to see the MOQ as something
> >> > beyond the 4th level ("beyond intellect" sounds like giving up
> >> > one's senses). And the SOL represents that child-like simplicity.
> >> >       
> >> > 
> >> >> In fact we have been constatly suggesting
> >> >> it's your very act of setting up intelect as SOMism / SOL that
> >> >> is creating that prison.
> >> > 
> >> > It's not me suggesting anything  but written all over LILA and
> >> > ZMM. It has been confirmed by Pirsig. See the next paragraph.    
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> >> A fossilised pattern I called it. I couldn't be
> >> >> working harder for the opposite if I tried.
> >> > 
> >> > The SOM is "fossilised" all right, but the quality of the S/O
> >> > divide cannot be jettisoned without us slipping back to the dark
> >> > ages. Therefore it is best encapsuled as the 4th level. The
> >> > original definition of this level as "mind" where ideas pop up
> >> > and disappear is rejected and in the same letter Pirsig said that
> >> > the Greeks "developed intellect" and this confirms that intellect
> >> > is the S/O. How can this slow and inevitable move in the SOL way
> >> > pass by unnoticed?  
> >> > 
> >> > I chose to ignore your parting "greeting", you are not the kind
> >> > to revert to foul language or hurt silence when arguments fail.  
> >> >  
> >> > 
> >> > Bo 
> >> > 
> >> > 
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> >> 
> > 
> > 
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