[MD] The Edge 2006 Annual Question

[skutvik at online.no]

Ian, Mike may be interested.

I had written

> > It's the realization of an objective reality
> > independent of subjective human opinion. Read the below from
> > ZMM and you will understand what the SOL is about.

> >    Now Plato's hatred of the Sophists makes sense. He and
> >    Socrates are defending the immortal principles of the
> >    Cosmologists against what they consider to be the
> >    decadence of the Sophists. Truth, knowledge. That which
> >    is independent of what anyone thinks about it. The ideal
> >    that Socrates died for. The ideal that Greece alone
> >    possesses for the fist time in the history of the world. It is
> >    still a very fragile thing. It can disappear completely
> >    [...........] Plato condemns the Sophists because they threatensvung
> >    mankind's first beginning grasp of the idea of truth. (ZMM p 368)

On 11 Jan. Ian  responded.
 
> [IG] - I recognise the passage, but I don't get your specific point
> here ?

Phew, are we back at square one again. We have been 
discussing intellect for aeons and I had the great feeling that the 
"mood" has slowly swung from the source of all confusion - the 
initial "mind-definition" - to a more Quality-like one, namely that 
ZMM is about the social-intellectual transition. If so the above 
cited passage from ZMM is how intellect's "O" looks on its "S" 
represented by the Sophists. This ought not be difficult or 
controversial, it's SOM!    

It's agonizing difficult but one point must be clarified. There are 
two views that intermingle and create confusion if not kept apart. 
I have presented the ZMM experience as the 4th level rising 
above the 3rd and that it may be seen as objectivity-out-of-
subjectivity, but this is the two views mixed. The first is MOQ's 
the latter is SOM's (the inter-intellect one). 

To complicate things further the MOQ view has gone through two 
stages, first the one represented by ZMM's moq where the Plato 
vs Sophists struggle is the valueless SOM conquering the value-
filled past. Then MOQ itself where "the past" becomes the social 
level and SOM becomes the intellectual and only now the final Q 
overview occurs wherein the social level has nothing to do with 
"subjectivism" or intellect with "objectivism", both are the 4th 
level's creations and its value. 

This has the consequence that the social past (which in ZMM was 
identified with Aretê ) only looked attractive for Phaedrus 
because it is non-dualistic (the same reason that Barfield looks to 
"original participation" as his Golden Age). Unless this second 
phase is completed the MOQ will remain in limbo. Either 
shunning ZMM because it stands out like a sore thumb or - like 
DMB - find some outlandish explanation about the Sophists being 
religious mystics and disappearing into that foggy land.  

Bo