[MD] Where have all the values gone?

[Arlo J. Bensinger]

Mornin' Platt,

I'm going to "thin down" our discussion to a few key points. If I omit anything
you'd like me to respond to, just let me know.


On you statement, "our culture provides more free time to pursue activity one
cares about than any culture in history." 

[Arlo]
According to what measure? How would you say our culture provides more free time
than Icelandic culture? Danish? Canadian? Japanese? 

[Platt]
I'm comparing today's Western culture with the Victorian culture before the
advent of the mandatory work week which today in the U.S. is 40 hours, in
France, 35 hours. 

[Arlo]
By definition, then, France is better, as it provides 5 hours more "free time"
per week. Also, working Americans average a little over two weeks of vacation
per year, while Europeans average five to six weeks! So, as far as cultures
that provide free time, I'd say we could do a lot better. But I'm glad to hear
that you support the idea that people need time away from work. And, let's not
forget that it was the US Labor Unions that pushed through, and won, the
40-hour work week (the Fair Labor Standards Act). A result of "The New Deal".
Back in "Victorian Times" when the "market" dictated the length of the work
week (and not social policy), people worked an average "10 hours a day, six
days a week". Glad to see you siding on the side of labor in limiting, though
social policy, the amount of work that can be demanded of an individual
(without a significant increase in renumeration- overtime) ensuring that "our
culture provides more free time to pursue activity one cares about".

[Arlo previously]
However, just to see if I understand, let me get back to your original
statement, and restate it. Tell me if you agree or disagree with this.

"The craftsman is driven to produce Quality things by a desire for material
profit." Would you say this is fairly true on a societal scale, in your
opinion?

[Platt]
I would put it this way. A craftsman who pays little or no attention to the 
bottom line will soon find himself digging ditches for a living.

[Arlo]
You keep skirting the issue. I've already stipulated that a certain amount of
attention to money is required in a money-based economy.

So, I ask again, "is the craftsman driven to produce Quality things by a desire
for material profit?" While individuals may vary, does this reflect your
opinion for the "reason we labor" on a societal scale?

Do you feel, like Erin seems to, that the motivation to labor at "work" is
naturally distinct from the motivation that prompts us in our leisure time? It
seems to me that such a distinction implies that "work" activity will only
occur as the result of external rewards. While "leisure activity" occurs as the
result of an internal desire, such as "following your bliss", or following DQ.

If "work" is only possible via external prompting and rewards, how on earth can
we ever "identify" with it, as Pirsig suggests, at all?

[Arlo previously]
If his salary isn't going to increase, and he is not in danger of losing his
job, why should Wally do anything more than the absolute lowest
and least he can do?

[Platt]
If I were Wally's boss, I'd fire him. Businesses are not built by slackers,
i.e.,  those who think the world owes them a living..

[Arlo]
Looks like you model calls for subtle coercion after all.

But again, I had said that Wally would do the minimum necessary to fulfill the
labor contract. You'd fire him for that? Why would you expect someone to do
more than what they are paid for? Why wouldn't you just pay them for the extra
effort? Why pay for a little, and then use the threat of firing to coerce
effort above and beyond the minimum stiplated in the labor contract?

[Platt, on identifying with labor activity]
Maybe so. In that case, if I can recognize the quality of the finished product
coming off the assembly line, I can identify with it even if my part was only
turning a screw.

[Arlo]
Can you? And you're extensive work on an assembly line, doing something like
"turning a screw", over how many years has led you this self-realization?

Arlo