[MD] Ham unlike you I will not create false idols

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Arlo]
On the production side, Americon Idol is huge business, an entertainment 
industry (like other industries) that is more concerned with generating 
"profit" than with anything else.

[Platt]
Many shows lose money. Anyway, what's wrong with trying to make a buck?

[Arlo]
Nothing at all. But when that's all that matters, you end up with American 
Idol. If the producers can put this show out and make "profit", why should 
any of your concerns matter at all. They're earning money. It's a free 
market. Profit is all that matters. American Idol is quite the success. If 
quality is "what people value", then American Idol has a lot of quality.

[Arlo previously]
On the contestent side, American Idol representes in brilliant example the 
Quest for Celebrity/Fame/Wealth that is the real American Dream, the only 
American Dream possible when "material profit" is the end-all of our 
raison-d-ete.

[Platt]
Unrealistic exaggeration . . . the "real American Dream, the only Dream 
possible . . ."

[Arlo]
Not at all unrealistic, but I can understand your desire to avoid it. With 
the caveat "when material profit is the end-all of our raison-d-ete", the 
American Dream become nothing more than "attaining wealth and celebrity". 
Why do you think the contestants are on the show? Two reasons. Money and 
Fame. And in the mercantilian language, achieving these things is the 
greatest goal they aspire to. Why do we do anything if not to make 
ourselves richer, through material profit, or attain celebrity status? 
According to you, if we weren't offered money, no one would work. So, we 
work for money. Given this goal of achieving wealth and celebrity, American 
Idol is a great success story. The businesses make a ton of profit. The 
winner gets a lot of money, not to mention fame and celebrity. Hey, what's 
wrong with that?

[Arlo previously]
This is of course a natural consequence of the recent "damn the pinheaded 
intellectuals" campaign of the anti-intellectual, socially-focused 
conservatives.

[Platt]
Ah yes, Hillary's great right-ring conspiracy.

[Arlo]
Not to be confused with the Great Liberal Media Conspiracy, eh? Or the 
liberal conspiracy to keep "conservatives" off college campuses. But, of 
course, all this makes sense in a world where only "liberals" conspire. 
Upstanding, conservative individuals would never, ever do something like this.

But, since you've bemoaned "intellectuals" broadly and repeatedly on the 
list, the same bemoaning that occurs on Hannity and Limbaugh, it's funny to 
me that you'd even try to deny this. The anti-intellectual, social-focus of 
the conservatives is pretty much their soapbox sermon.

[Arlo]
Attaining "social level" greatness is the True Reason We Exist (according 
to these folks), something that is Natural and Best Goal we can ever strive 
for. Strive for Wealth, Strive for Material Profit. And so we elevate the 
rich and the famous to higher pedastals than ever before in our culture. We 
read more about Paris Hilton and Sam Walton than about history and philosophy.

[Platt]
Putting Paris Hilton and Sam Walton in the same boat may work rhetorically, 
but not realistically.

[Arlo]
Au contraire. Their "wealth" generates jobs for others. Look at all the 
people employed making "Paris Hilton" products, not to mention the 
entertainment jobs created to report on the lifestyles of the rich and 
famous. We also elevate them equally to the status of High Celebrity, for 
no other reason than their wealth. We read (per capita) more about these 
rich and famous individuals than we read history, philosophy, poetry or 
literature.

[Arlo previously]
We are more concerned with who's going to be the next American Idol than 
with our local schools slashing music and arts programs (another natural 
result of being fixated on "material profit").

[Platt]
Since when are music and art programs intellectual concerns? Both music and 
art arose long before the intellectual level gained dominance.

[Arlo]
When schools run according to a business model (i.e., must show profit) 
arts and music programs are the first cut to make that profit. That's just 
reality Platt. It also has a lot to do with the re-conceptualization of 
schools from the "liberal arts model" to the "vocational training model" 
(again, a result of the idea that "material profit" is the reason we do 
"anything").

[Arlo previously]
No, American Idol is here because our culture is now one that values social 
level wealth, fame and celebrity as the Highest and Greatest of Human 
Achievements.

[Platt]
Hyperbole.

[Arlo]
Truth.

The industry values profit over everything else, the contestants value 
profit over everything else, and the consumer understands and believes it 
as well. American Idol IS American culture. That's why its so popular, and 
millions watch it.

Or, if its not all about a culture that is fixated on wealth and fame, why 
do the producers make it? Why do the contestants go on? Why do we watch?

[Arlo previously]
In its campaign to reanimate Randian values, to devalue "Liberal Arts" and 
University education, to make "material profit" the Ultimate Goal of Human 
Activity, big business, American consumers and American contestents are all 
united in the natural end-prodcut called "American Idol".

[Platt]
Your anti-caplitalist, anti-free market, anti-American, pro-socialist bias 
is showing.

[Arlo]
When you resort to these typical fear tactics, it only means that you can't 
argue, so you try to dodge and propagate fear. So I have an "anti-American" 
bias now, do I? That's a pretty sad deception tactic, Platt. And we had 
been getting along so well.

But go ahead, tell everyone that "you're right" because "Arlo wants to put 
everyone in a gulag". If that's what you think will make your case.

[Platt]
What we are failing to teach our children, and what Ham and I deplore, is 
discrimination, resulting in many thinking that Mick Jagger sings as well 
as Frank Sinatra, that if you and your friends say something is good, 
it--ipso facto--must be good. I recommend Ham's essay on "Discrimination."

[Arlo]
Oh Jeezuz... you have nothing to offer but the same old archaistic nonsense 
again. Yes, if only everyone had the same tastes as you and Ham, the world 
would be sooo perfect. A veritable "Leave It To Beaver" world, like 
Pleasantville. A return to the good ol' days. We were through that before. 
What you really mean by "discrimination" is "discriminate like me".

I hearby dub thee... Plarchie Bunker. I'd love to hear you and Ham sing...

"Boy the way Glen Miller played
Songs that made the hit parade.
Guys like us we had it made,
Those were the days.

And you knew who you were then,
Girls were girls and men were men,
Mister we could use a man
Like Herbert Hoover again.

Didn't need no welfare state,
Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee our old LaSalle ran great.
Those were the days."

Which is frankly too bad, because if you really looked for the cultural 
reasons behind the success of American Idol, we could likely find some 
common ground. Instead, its just more ad hoc rage against anything post-"My 
Three Sons", and an archaistic appeal to the wonderful days of "the Beav'". 
Frank Sinatra.... sheeeesh.

Arlo