[MD] Emergent Consciousness

[Stephen Hannon]

[dmb]:
You shouldn't be amazed because the MOQ attacks some of the simplest,
self evident concepts. What amazes me is that anyone would come to a
forum like this to defend the autonomous self, victorian morality,
theisim, faith and all the other stuff that is so thoroughly attacked
and deconstructed in Pirsig's books.

[Steve H]:
Were you expecting everyone to agree?  Why would someone join a
discussion group?

[dmb continues]:
Anyone who says, as Jesus is reported to have said (John 10:30), 'I
and the Father are One', is declared in our tradition to have
blasphemed."

[Steve H]:
You just used a quote from the Bible to defend the destruction of
theism.  Please clarify your position.

Regards,
Steve H

On 7/1/06, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ham asked:
> It continues to amaze me how the simplest, most self-evident concepts
> provoke rage in this forum. Platt has been making an eloquent appeal for
> recognition of the individual intellect,...  Why is his suggestion
> unreasonable?  Why is an analysis of of the individual perspective "out of
> bounds" in the Metaphysics of Quality?  Does it impugn Pirsig's thesis?
> Does it lessen our understanding of Quality? ...And what is the "point" I
> don't get?  That there is no individual consciousness?
>
> dmb says:
> You shouldn't be amazed because the MOQ attacks some of the simplest, self
> evident concepts. What amazes me is that anyone would come to a forum like
> this to defend the autonomous self, victorian morality, theisim, faith and
> all the other stuff that is so thoroughly attacked and deconstructed in
> Pirsig's books. Anyway, as you can see from the quotes below, the attack on
> the individual self is not about political ideologies. Its a philosophical
> point. Its a religious point. Its a metaphysical criticism of our most basic
> assumptions. I think that's what you and don't get.
>
> Either that, or the Buddha was a Commie.
>
> Arlo quoted from Lila:
> "...This Cartesian "Me," this autonomous little homunculus who sits behind
> our eyeballs looking out through them in order to pass judgment on the
> affairs of the world, is just completely ridiculous. This self-appointed
> little editor of reality is just an impossible fiction that collapses the
> moment one examines it. This Cartesian "Me" is a software reality, not a
> hardware reality...."
>
> dmb quotes a website, which quotes Pirsig:
> ...while studying philosophy at Benares Hindu University, Pirsig came across
> the Sanskrit doctrine of Tat tvam asi -- in his words, "Thou art that, which
> asserts that everything you think you are (Subjective) and everything you
> think you perceive (Objective) are undivided. To fully realize this lack of
> division is to become enlightened."
>
> dmb quotes Joe Campbell:
> "Already in the 8th century B.C., in the Chhandogya Upanisad, the key word
> to such a meditation is announced; TAT TVAM ASI, "Thou art That", or "You
> yourself are It!". The final sense of a religion such as Hinduism or
> Buddhism is to bring about in the individual an experience, one way or
> another, of his own IDENTITY with that mystery that is the mystery of all
> being. ...it is the mystery also of many of our own Occidental mystics; and
> many of these have been burned for having said as much. Westward of Iran, in
> all three of the great traditions that have come to us from the Near Eastern
> zone, namely Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such concepts are unthinkable
> and sheer heresy. God created the world. Creator and creature cannot be the
> same, since, as Aristotle tells us, A is not-A. Our theology, therefore,
> begins from the point of view of waking consciousness and Aristotelian
> logic; whereas, on another level of consciousness - and this, the level to
> which all religions must finally refer - the ultimate mystery transcends the
> laws of dualistic logic, causality and space-time. Anyone who says, as Jesus
> is reported to have said (John 10:30), 'I and the Father are One', is
> declared in our tradition to have blasphemed."
>
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