[MD] The MoQ.org STRANGLES Creativity

[Case]

dmb says:
You think Christianity will survive modernity and postmodernity? You think 
it lasted so long and spread so far because its "plastic enough to meet the 
spiritual needs"? And the problem is the fault of ignorant frauds within the

churches? Yikes. I gotta disagree with you on every point. As I see it, 
Christianity is already dead and questions about its survival are quite 
pointless. 

[Case]
I don't know where you live but you should get out more. Most towns in the
southern United States have more churches than restaurants. In my town of
under 100,000 souls we have no less than three mega-churches with
congregations of 7,000 or more. Last time I checked the religious right had
staged a virtual take over of all three branches of our government. The
right wing media mouthpieces rule the AM bands and cable channels. They are
constantly yapping on about their devotion to the faith.

Maybe we simply have different definitions of "dead".

[dmb]
I think it lasted as long as it did and spread as widely as it 
did mostly because it was backed up by force. And it was spread to other 
cultures in the same historical process that also spread slavery, genocide, 
disease, colonization and imperialism in general. That picture is darker 
than it needs to be, but you see my point.

[Case]
I do see your point and it is darker than it needs to be. No belief system
survives 2000 years because people are compelled by force to accept it. You
can not judge an idea by its practitioners. There has to be something at its
core that satisfies the needs of believers. Capitalism in its modern form is
despoiling the planet. In its name we fire depleted uranium at camel herds.
But it has fed, clothed and sheltered comfortably millions of people whose
biggest crisis of the day is how much fat to tolerate in their latte. 

[dmb]
The myths are still very powerful and attractive. I don't think we'll ever
be able to ditch that because myths are at the very core of our social level
values and are connected to the very structure of our consciousness. I mean,
the myths seem to shine through despite the work of the theologians. 

[Case]
I think we are on the same page here. 

[dmb]
I also think that postmodernity is gonna have to find a way to include the
"spiritual" dimension, for lack of a better word. But theism itself, by
which I mean nothing more than the conventional definition; the belief in a
supernatural creator, a supreme governor of the universe. 

[Case]
Possibly, but I don't think that is going to happen by whining about how
stupid believers are and pretending they are just going to suddenly respond
to reason. You can not communicate with people if you do not speak their
language. George Bush and the neocons understand this and it has served them
very well indeed. 

[dmb]
As I understand it, the MOQ rejects all things supernatural. And yet DQ is
equated with religious mysticism. Like Zen Buddhism, its a "religion"
without a theistic God.

[Case]
I don't get your point here. Do you see western culture banging on the door
of the MoQ? Do you think Zen Buddhism has anything to offer the patrons of
your local WalMart? Asian rulers for centuries have loved Buddhism because
it encourages believers to free themselves from desire and to passively
accept their karma. I think Taoism makes profound and precise metaphysical
statement about the way things are but I don't for a second think it will
fly in Peoria.

Case replied earlier:
I am not sure I see your meaning about rape theft and murder being the norm 
before the intellect came along, though. As social creatures I believe those

evils were moderated socially long before intellect came along....

dmb says:
Right, those evils were moderated by social level values. I quoted myself up

above to show you that I'd already said that. Those evils are among the 
"animal" values, by which I mean biological level values.

[Case]
I don't believe I misunderstood you at all. There was never a time in human
history when we were not social animals. Nurturing of our young, love for
our families, sharing and compassion are also animal values. The intellect
has done nothing for us in this respect. Intellect is a cheap suit we wear
to dress up what we already feel in our hearts.

dmb says:
The last 500 years would make sense. That's about when the pre-moden world 
began to unravel. 

[Case]
You can throw a dart at a timeline and say this is about the time the "X"
world began to unravel and "Y" world was woven from the extra threads. Time
means nothing. There are now 6 billion people on the planet and more than
half of them might as well be living a 1000 years ago.

[dmb]
But I think there needs to be a real sense of urgency about ditching the
various forms of hate and prejudice simply because its been so bloody
lethal. Its ugly and regressive and evil. The world is just too small for
that shit now. And I think its no accident that so much of the world's fear
and violence has to do with the conflict between religions.

[Case]
I agree something needs to be done but change or any kind, even positive
change has unintended consequences. Sometimes the cure is more painful than
the disease. After all isn't one of our fearless leader's big deals that we
are going to bring liberty to people and free them of their isms. Then we
give them a chance to vote and they vote overwhelmingly for the isms? In
today's world much of the violence comes from forced cultural collisions and
fear is manufactured nightly on the local news.

dmb responding to Steve:
But I think the cure is to fix this flaw in the scientific world view rather
than return to theism. In other words, the trick is to expand rationality so
that we can have an intellectually respectable form of spirituality.

[Case]
Your faith is reason is nice. I even share it. But it will not save us. That
was the view of the Gnostics who thought that there was a special bit of
knowledge that would deliver the elect. Look around most people do not have
the time, inclination or ability to reason. It is incumbent on those who can
to tell better stories to those who can't. We need to sing them better
songs. But asking them to think? Please...

dmb says:
I think capitalism and industrial culture, individualism and social 
darwinism have much, much more to with the loss of community. And a lot of 
it has to do with mass media and the sheer speed and scale of things. How do

you have a sense of community when you live in a city with millions of other

people? Its tough to stop and say hello when you driving by at 65 or flying 
over at ten times that speed. And if Pirsig is right, there is a flawed 
rationality that lies beneath all this technology.

[Case]
The sad fact it we may not be equipped by nature to deal with this rate of
change. Look out for punctuated equilibrium.

[dmb]
As I see it, the MOQ rejects scientific materialism and theism. As I said to

Matt in the "How is atheism a religion?" thread in response to his "point 
about the pointlessness of God-talk. I think we ought to ditch the idea of a

supernatural creator being and re-examine a lot of that God-talk. You know, 
if you don't take the low-grade yelping about God too literally and all 
that. I think that we gotta ditch the idea that there is some intelligent 
entity seperate from us and/or beyond human experience and look at that 
material as if it refered to a certain kind of human experience, an aspect
of our reality instead. Theism is what you get when this stuff is taken too 
literally, see? I think one of the main reasons that believers have trouble 
coming up with any kind of proof, trouble coming up with some basis in 
experience for the existence of the theistic God is because the whole notion
is based on a profound misreading of God-talk. I think its not quite enough 
to simply deny the existence of this supernatural entity, although I agree 
with that as far as it goes. But the trick is to avoid throwing the baby out

with the bathwater. The God-talk that goes on in the world's Great
religions may have drawn up some pretty confused and misleading maps, but 
that doesn't mean there's no territory there worth charting properly. I've 
become quite convinced that this stuff points to some of the most 
interesting of human experiences. I mean, this baby is well worth saving. 
Again, dusting off and sorting out rather than total abandonment."

[Case]
The problem with all of the above is that believers are not concerned with
proof. And as far as people ditching their God-Talk: you can think they
should in one hand and shit in the other and see which one gets full first.
If you are really concerned with the baby maybe you should learn to speak
the language and blow bubbles in the bathwater. It works for Bush and you
know which end the bubbles are coming from.