[MD] The MoQ.org STRANGLES Creativity

[david buchanan]

Case said to dmb:
I don't know where you live but you should get out more. Most towns in the 
southern United States have more churches than restaurants. In my town of 
under 100,000 souls we have no less than three mega-churches with 
congregations of 7,000 or more. Last time I checked the religious right had 
staged a virtual take over of all three branches of our government. The 
right wing media mouthpieces rule the AM bands and cable channels. They are 
constantly yapping on about their devotion to the faith.  ...Maybe we simply 
have different definitions of "dead".

dmb says:
Yea, you're right. If 85% of Americans are Christian and the population is 
about to reach 300 million, then there are something like 250 million 
Christians in the USA. That's why the lions are so darn fat. But we don't 
necessarily disagree here. I'd simply point out that these people are 
practicing a dead religion. I'd simply point out that these people are, for 
the most part, not Modern or Postmodern. They're pre-modern thinkers in a 
post-modern world. Or rather it is a strange hybrid of mythic and rational 
thinking. Its a reactionary movement and a form of mass denial, which is a 
stage of the grieving process. I think this movement is so desperate and 
impervious to the evidence because its basically an emotional reaction, 
which is what makes it so dangerous.

Case said:
I do see your point and it is darker than it needs to be. No belief system 
survives 2000 years because people are compelled by force to accept it. You 
can not judge an idea by its practitioners. There has to be something at its 
core that satisfies the needs of believers...

dmb says:
Well, like I said, the myths shine through the clap trap. I think that draws 
lots of people. And there is more to it than just force of course, but its 
basically an historical fact that Christianity was an extenstion of the 
Roman Empire. They really did kill dissenters and such. I'm sure you've 
heard about the Inquisition and the Crusades. And while I'd agree that you 
can't judge a church by its hypocrites, I think that you can judge an 
institution by its history. I think we have to.

Case continued:
...Capitalism in its modern form is despoiling the planet. In its name we 
fire depleted uranium at camel herds. But it has fed, clothed and sheltered 
comfortably millions of people whose biggest crisis of the day is how much 
fat to tolerate in their latte.

dmb says:
Can we really give all the credit to capitalism? Isn't the vast increase in 
productivity really due to technological improvements? Southern planters got 
rich after the cotton gin was invented, but they were still using slave 
labor. I mean, productivity and property rights aren't necessarily 
connected. Getting fed and being free are not quite the same thing. But I'm 
talking about the impersonal nature of capitalism. It construres life as one 
big race in a competitive arena where mass production takes all the art out 
of it. There's a guy halfway round the world right now with exactly the same 
lighter in his pocket and with exactly the same cigarette in his mouth. 
Cheap and identical. There's something about this situation that makes us 
anonymous, turns us into interchangable parts. Even our schools are set up 
like an assembly line. This is the sort of alienation I'm taking about. 
Makes us feel like cogs in a machine. You know, resistance is futile and all 
that. (Man, that Jeri Ryan sure is sexy, eh?)

Case said:
Possibly, but I don't think that is going to happen by whining about how 
stupid believers are and pretending they are just going to suddenly respond 
to reason. You can not communicate with people if you do not speak their 
language. George Bush and the neocons understand this and it has served them 
very well indeed.

dmb says:
Well yea, I'd probably have to employ different tactics if I were 
interesting in converting believers or running a political campaign. But 
that's not what we're doing here. At least, that not what I'm doing here. 
I'm talking about the conflict in values that lies behind the conflicts in 
recent history and in today's headlines. I'm talking about where theism fits 
into the MOQ's analysis.

dmb had said:
As I understand it, the MOQ rejects all things supernatural. And yet DQ is 
equated with religious mysticism. Like Zen Buddhism, its a "religion" 
without a theistic God.

Case replied:
I don't get your point here. Do you see western culture banging on the door 
of the MoQ? Do you think Zen Buddhism has anything to offer the patrons of 
your local WalMart? Asian rulers for centuries have loved Buddhism because 
it encourages believers to free themselves from desire and to passively 
accept their karma. I think Taoism makes profound and precise metaphysical 
statement about the way things are but I don't for a second think it will 
fly in Peoria.

dmb says:
Okay, but why do we care whether or not it plays in Peoria? I'm just talking 
to you and the other MOQers. And I think it would be some kind of crime to 
cater to the Peorians if that means altering the message so as to make it 
more pleasing or whatever. Civility is a worthy cause, but intellectual 
honesty and integrity is even more worthy, don't you think? And if Asian 
rulers used Buddhism to oppress Buddhists, then shame on them. But the point 
is simply to clarify the distinction between theism and mysticism.

dmb had said:
Right, those evils were moderated by social level values. I quoted myself up 
above to show you that I'd already said that. Those evils are among the 
"animal" values, by which I mean biological level values.

Case replied:
I don't believe I misunderstood you at all. There was never a time in human 
history when we were not social animals. Nurturing of our young, love for 
our families, sharing and compassion are also animal values. The intellect 
has done nothing for us in this respect. Intellect is a cheap suit we wear
to dress up what we already feel in our hearts.

dmb says:
Compassion is a biological value? Intellect is a cheap suit for the heart? 
Huh? I can't make any sense of that.

Case said:
I agree something needs to be done but change of any kind, even positive 
change, has unintended consequences. Sometimes the cure is more painful than 
the disease. After all isn't one of our fearless leader's big deals that we 
are going to bring liberty to people and free them of their isms. Then we 
give them a chance to vote and they vote overwhelmingly for the isms? In 
today's world much of the violence comes from forced cultural collisions and 
fear is manufactured nightly on the local news.

dmb says:
Forced cultural collisions. Exactly. That's part of the same problem. There 
is definately an element of cultural chauvinism in our fearless leader's 
policies. As I see it, the desire to spread freedom at gun point is 
basically an extension of the Crusades. Its kinda hard to see this forced 
export as a problem when you love freedom and the USA, but you can bet your 
bottom dollar that the importers sure do see it that way. Somehow, we 
Westerners got it into our head that democracy and free markets is 
culturally neutral, but they are not neutra at all. What they end up doing 
in other countries is wash out the indigenous culture. It sorts washes out 
our culture too. Did you know, for example, that shaving is considered some 
to be a sin in certain Islamic traditions and the barbers in Bahgdad are 
being murdered for it? Giving somebody a short, Western haircut will get 
them killed. Pickle juice is against the law because it could ferment and 
then contain a trace of alcohol.

Who would've imagined that selling pickles would offend anyone? Now how 
about selling hamburgers in a Hindu neighborhood or bacon cheese burgers in 
a Jewish neighborhood or a pig roast in downtown Tehran? How about a pack of 
marlboroughs and a playboy magazine in Mecca?

They don't have our freedom. They hate our arrogance, ignorance and cultural 
imperialism. And our military bases and our puppets. Okay, now I've gone off 
on a tanget. But this is what I mean in saying that the world is too small 
for this now.

Case said:
Your faith is reason is nice. I even share it. But it will not save us. That 
was the view of the Gnostics who thought that there was a special bit of 
knowledge that would deliver the elect. Look around most people do not have 
the time, inclination or ability to reason. It is incumbent on those who can
to tell better stories to those who can't. We need to sing them better 
songs. But asking them to think? Please...

dmb says:
The Gnostics? I don't think the "knowledge" of the Gnostics has much to do 
with the MOQ's expansion of rationality.

Case said:
The problem with all of the above is that believers are not concerned with 
proof. And as far as people ditching their God-Talk: you can think they 
should in one hand and shit in the other and see which one gets full first. 
If you are really concerned with the baby maybe you should learn to speak
the language and blow bubbles in the bathwater. It works for Bush and you 
know which end the bubbles are coming from.

dmb says:
So I should just give up on philosophical discussions and instead 
dishonestly repackage this idea into a form of political propaganda so as to 
persuade people who are not concerned with proof? C'mon, Case, I'm not quite 
that sleazy. I've been tempted to start a cult, to take advantage of such 
"thinkers" because the money is so, so good. But ultimately, I discovered 
that I just don't have the heart for such a life. Sure, there would be an 
endless parade of ego-inflating devotees and I look absolutely fantastic in 
a white robe, but I just wouldn't be able to keep a straight face. Just ask 
anyone who's ever played poker with me. But seriously, you've hit this theme 
several times and I think its really pretty goofy. I don't expect Ralph Reed 
or Jerry Fallinawell will be reading any of these posts and I'm not writing 
any of these posts for them. If there are people of faith who come to this 
forum, well that's might brave of them. Or maybe its just that they don't 
realize that the MOQ is an anti-theistic system. Either way, I don't think 
we need to alter anything just to make sure nobody's feelings get hurt. That 
would be a case of putting social protocol over intellectual honesty. That 
would be a form of censorship, emotional blackmail. That would be a little 
bit evil.

As I see it, we are obliged to put everything on the table, especially the 
ideas that are most challenging and disturbing to us, and just let the chips 
fall where they may.

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