[MD] The Individual Level

[Stephen Hannon]

[Platt]
If you read a little further you will see Pirsig rejects communism and socialism
because, unlike the free market, they both have no provision for
morals or Dynamic
Quality. "But what the socialists left out and what has all but killed
their whole
undertaking is an absence of a concept of indefinite Dynamic Quality."
(Lila, 17)

[Steve H]
Okay, so capitalism (Dynamic) is more moral than communism
(Intellectual).  Then will you accept that communism is intellectual
and give up the "individual level" claim?  Or are you saying Pirsig is
wrong in calling communism intellectual?

By the way your quote came before mine.  You said to read further.

Regards,
Steve H

On 7/13/06, Platt Holden <pholden at davtv.com> wrote:
> > [Platt]
> > Publishing information that helps bilogical killers is a social pattern
> > called treason.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > But they were "honest". That's my point. "Honesty" is a social level
> > moral that must be weighed in depending on the social context
>
> I gave you an example from Pirsig about intellectual level honesty
> which you chose to ignore -- the scientist faking data. But if you deny
> there is such a thing as intellectual honesty, I wouldn't be greatly
> surprised.
>
> > Like
> > telling your spouse s/he hasn't gained weight, when that is not really
> > "honest".
>
> I would call that "keeping peace in the family" honesty. :-)
>
> > I'm with you more than not on the NYT, by the way. I'm not
> > sure I saw eminent danger to the public. So long as Congress was briefed
> > and approved, the actions were likely legit, and the NYT made a grievous
> > error. Had Congress NOT been briefed, then the potential threat of the
> > exposure was worth it. Unaccountable executive power is a greater
> > threat, no matter who is the president.
>
> We agree. But why not charge the NYT with treason and penalize them
> according to the law?
>
> > [Arlo]
> > I think we should all strive to be a QPP, wouldn't you say?
>
> No I wouldn't say.
>
> > Isn't that
> > more valuable a quest than proclaiming self-righteous superiority based
> > on blind adherence to a few Victorian social morals?
>
> What do they call questions like "Have you stop beating your wife?"
>
> > But my point was that someone who was Quality-Principled would know when
> > to apply particular social morals, and when to NOT apply them. Or at the
> > least, they wouldn't base their ego on some self-righteous adherence to
> > static social level morals.
>
> Seems to me your QPP is about as self-righteous as they come. At least
> as you seem to define yourself as being one.
>
> > I'm also curious why you think the QPP denies "seeking a place "to be
> > alone and quiet and inconspicuous"? I don't personally recall this from
> > Pirsig, but I find no contradiction between the QPP and this value.
> > Indeed, if you can cite for me where Pirsig mentions this as a trait of
> > someone in touch with Quality, I'll be glad to amend my definition.
>
> See Chap. 30 of Lila. Incidentally, how about adding that your QPP is a
> free marketeer?
>
> > So, I'm going to repost this again, and ask you specifically where you
> > feel it diverges from Pirsig. Specifically, which of these qualities do
> > you feel is "liberal"?
>
> OK, I'll bite.
>
> > [Arlo's proposed definition based on ZMM]
> > A "Quality principled person" is someone who respects the oneness of
> > life.
>
> We're all one, Kumbaya. Liberal.
>
> >S/he is patient, egoless and possesses a "beginner's mind".
>
> Patience is an intellectual level virtue. Egoless is liberal.
> Beginner's mind I suppose is a mind like a child. Liberals play the
> children card at the drop of a hat, always "saving" them with other
> people's money.
>
> > S/he
> > holds her values flexibley, and can be seen as filled with gumption.
>
> Value flexibility is definitely liberal, sticking a finger in the
> political wind to see which way its blowing. Gumption is an
> quintessential intellectual level trait right out of the Victorian era.
>
> > S/he dislikes specialization, and is an excellect all-arounder.
> Sounds like "blowin' in the wind." Liberal.
>
> > In
> > her/his work, she demonstrates no division between art and practice, and
> > her/his work can be seen as possessing beauty because of their
> > unselfconscious way of looking at things.
>
> Ah, craftsmanship. An intellectual virtue.
>
> So we come up with a mixture of traits, but by and large, liberal in
> its feel-good generalities. Personally I like the free-market, mind
> your own business, take no prisoners Pirsig.
>
>
>
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