[MD] The Individual Level

[pholden at davtv.com]

Quoting Arlo Bensinger <ajb102 at psu.edu>:

> [Platt]
> I gave you an example from Pirsig about intellectual level honesty which 
> you chose to ignore -- the scientist faking data. But if you deny there is 
> such a thing as intellectual honesty, I wouldn't be greatly surprised.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Because the "dishonesty" is a social level event that effects the quality 
> of the intellectual level patterns. Ask, why would the scientist "fake" his 
> data? Can you think of any intellectual level reason? No. Any example I can 
> think of involves "faking" for the sake of elevating social level 
> "celebrity" over intellectual level patterns.

Exactly. The quality of the intellectual pattern depends on the individual
scientist's honesty. I think you've got it. 

> [Platt]
> I would call that "keeping peace in the family" honesty.
> 
> [Arlo]
> You would call lying to spouse about his/her weight gain "honesty"? Seems 
> to me, then, you're simply saying "honesty" is whatever I say it is.

What would you call it? 

> [Platt]
> We agree. But why not charge the NYT with treason and penalize them 
> according to the law?
> 
> [Arlo]
> I'm not sure what you're asking me. Like I said, if it's shown that the 
> espionage was done following due process and oversight, then I find the NYT 
> likely committed a grievous error. If there was no due process or 
> oversight, then their actions were worth it. As for criminal charges, this 
> is for the courts to decide. No?

I was asking for your opinion whether the NYT ought to be charged with treason. 
Why are you reluctant to say?  

> [Platt]
> Seems to me your QPP is about as self-righteous as they come. At least as 
> you seem to define yourself as being one.
> 
> [Arlo]
> I claim to try to be one. Whether or not I succeed is another matter. But 
> the effort is more valuable, I think, than picking a few social level 
> morals and proclaiming myself superior for adhering to them.

Your claim to try to be one to in order to set youself up as superior to others.
That's self-righteous. 

> [Arlo previously]
> I think we should all strive to be a QPP, wouldn't you say?
> 
> [Platt]
> No I wouldn't say.
> 
> [Arlo]
> So, following Pirsig's guides for getting in touch with Quality isn't 
> important, but obedience to social level morals is? Strange, but to each 
> his own.

Those are you interpretations of Pirsig's guides. I disagree with many of 
your interpretations as explained below.
 
> [Platt]
> See Chap. 30 of Lila. Incidentally, how about adding that your QPP is a 
> free marketeer?
> 
> [Arlo]
> Well, "business" is a social level venture, so it really does not mean much 
> in terms of my contact with Quality.

It figures you would duck the Quality of being dedicated to a free market.

> As for Chapter 30, I find the following key passages.
> 
> Both lunatics and mystics have freed themselves from the conventional 
> static intellectual patterns of their culture. The only difference is that 
> the lunatic has shifted over to a private static pattern of his own, 
> whereas the mystic has abandoned all static patterns in favor of pure 
> Dynamic Quality.
> 
> The Metaphysics of Quality says that it is immoral for sane people to force 
> cultural conformity by suppressing the Dynamic drives that produce insanity.
> 
> But what goes unrecognized in a subject-object theoretical structure is the 
> fact that this senseless unpatterned state is a valuable state of existence.
> 
> The Metaphysics of Quality says that what sometimes accidentally occurs in 
> an insane asylum but occurs deliberately in a mystic retreat is a natural 
> human process called dhyana in Sanskrit. In our culture dhyana is 
> ambiguously called "meditation."
> 
> I like this, and so I will addend the Quality Principled Person as follows.
> 
> A "Quality principled person" is someone who respects the oneness of 
> life.  S/he is patient, egoless and possesses a "beginner's mind". S/he 
> holds her values flexibley, and can be seen as filled with gumption. S/he 
> dislikes specialization, and is an excellect all-arounder. In her/his work, 
> she demonstrates no division between art and practice, and her/his work can 
> be seen as possessing beauty because of their unselfconscious way of 
> looking at things. The Quality Principled Person recognizes that Dhyana, or 
> meditation, can be used to empty out "static junk" that prevents access to 
> Quality. Furthermore, s/he will strive to find a balance between static and 
> Dynamic qualities in all aspects of her/his life.
> 
> Good?

I liked my interpretation better.

> Now, as to your specific responses.
> 
> [Arlo's proposed definition based on ZMM]
> A "Quality principled person" is someone who respects the oneness of life.
> 
> [Platt]
> We're all one, Kumbaya. Liberal.
> 
> [Arlo]
> This, of course, refers to the Homerian hero, who before S/O dualism 
> followed arete. Pirsig writes, "Areté implies a respect for the wholeness 
> or oneness of life". You disagree? Or is "arete" a liberal thing?

It's a liberal thing, Kumbaya.
 
> [Arlo previously]
> S/he is patient, egoless and possesses a "beginner's mind".
> 
> [Platt]
> Patience is an intellectual level virtue. Egoless is liberal. Beginner's 
> mind I suppose is a mind like a child. Liberals play the children card at 
> the drop of a hat, always "saving" them with other people's money.
> 
> [Arlo]
> What in my statement refers in any way to "liberals saving children with 
> other people's money"? All these traits are those Pirsig describes as 
> necessary to avoid gumption traps and to become "filled with Quality". You 
> disagree?

Like I said. We interpret some of Pirsig's views differently. Nowhere do I find that
he defined a QPP like you are trying to do. And by the way, aren't all your
definitions drawn from ZMM? Lila was his later work, you know.
 
> [Arlo previously]
> S/he holds her values flexibley, and can be seen as filled with gumption.
> 
> [Platt]
> Value flexibility is definitely liberal, sticking a finger in the political 
> wind to see which way its blowing. Gumption is an quintessential 
> intellectual level trait right out of the Victorian era.
> 
> [Arlo]
> "Value flexibility" is liberal? Reaaaaally? Pirsig writes, "Of the value 
> traps, the most widespread and pernicious is value rigidity. This is an 
> inability to revalue what one sees because of commitment to previous 
> values. In motorcycle maintenance, you must rediscover what you do as you 
> go. Rigid values make this impossible." I didn't read this as a 
> condemnation of "conservatives", but if "value flexibility" is liberal, 
> then I suppose "value rigidity" is "conservative".  Oh well, that's your 
> dichotomy then.

Pirsig is talking about motorcycle maintenance. I was talking about political
expediency. You see? Different contexts, different interpretations.

> [Arlo previously]
> S/he dislikes specialization, and is an excellect all-arounder.
> 
> [Platt]
> Sounds like "blowin' in the wind." Liberal.
> 
> [Arlo]
> So, the following describes a "liberal". "Thus the hero of the Odyssey is a 
> great fighter, a wily schemer, a ready speaker, a man of stout heart and 
> broad wisdom who knows that he must endure without too much complaining 
> what the gods send; and he can both build and sail a boat, drive a furrow 
> as straight as anyone, beat a young braggart at throwing the discus, 
> challenge the Pheacian youthat boxing, wrestling or running; flay, skin, 
> cut up and cook an ox, and be moved to tears by a song. He is in fact an 
> excellent all-rounder; he has surpassing areté."
> 
> So, according to you, liberals must then have suprising arete. Interesting.

Is THAT your description of a QPP? I wonder when was the last time you skinned an 
ox. :-):

> [Arlo previously]
> In her/his work, she demonstrates no division between art and practice, and 
> her/his work can be seen as possessing beauty because of their 
> unselfconscious way of looking at things.
> 
> [Platt]
> Ah, craftsmanship. An intellectual virtue.
> 
> [Arlo]
> No. A trait of someone who is in touch with Quality. A Quality Principled 
> Person.

No. An individual level personal moral trait.
 
> [Platt]
> So we come up with a mixture of traits, but by and large, liberal in its 
> feel-good generalities.
> 
> [Arlo]
> Since this is all directly from Pirsig, then Pirsig is a liberal, okay. Fine.

Maybe he is, except I like the Pirsig as I described him and as he presents himself
in Lila. 
> 
> [Platt]
> Personally I like the free-market, mind your own business, take no 
> prisoners Pirsig.
> 
> [Arlo]
> What you like is Rigel. It's all you every really argue for. Indeed, your 
> "principled person" could use Rigel as its poster child.

And your PPG is Bill Clinton, your poster boy. Bet you have a life-sized 
cardboard cut out of him in your bedroom. So there.








> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> moq_discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> 




-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/