[MD] Faith

[Peter Corteen]

Hi Case and dmb,

Case said:
At some level each of us has to decide on a personal standard of Truth or
what they will accept as true.

 Give me a situation where I am forced to decide on a personal standard of
Truth (and explain why the capital T).
I've said before I cannot act otherwise than that my senses correspond to
reality; I need not posit a matrix beyond nor any other kind of hidden
realm.

DMB puts it very succinctly:
Faith, by definition, is a belief held in the absence of evidence.

Facing the uncertainty of life's dilemmas in the first place you act
according to your own needs followed by those of your family and friends and
then other people and animals.

Case asked:
With what word would you describe: belief that a mathematical axiom is true

... when there is contextual evidence that it is true.

Case you can stick with religion if you want; that's your choice; but I
don't need no new afflictions or restrictions - that old time religion is
good enough for me. I ain't against folk working together - thats better for
everyone. But don't ask me to accept some bunch of hoodoo.

Peter

On 25/07/06, Case <Case at ispots.com> wrote:
>
> Peter said to Case:
> It is only in philosphy forums that people talk about having faith that
> the
> sun will rise tommorrow; in any other situation it is never considered, it
> is an arificial use of language. I expect the sun will rise tommorrow but
> I
> don't have faith that it will. Faith always stinks of religion to me.
> Having
>
> faith in something is a waste of energy. Better to gather your information
> and then make a considered guess about the future.
>
> dmb says:
> I'm with Peter here. Faith, by definition, is a belief held in the absence
> of evidence. The amount of evidence supporting the belief in tomorrow's
> sunrise is more than ample and so requires no faith.
>
> And, intentional or not, using faith to describe the belief in tomorrow's
> sunrise only has the effect of putting religion and wishful thinking on
> the
> same level as astrophysics. Using faith that way defies the definition of
> the word and undermines the distinction between high and low quality
> ideas.
> It demonstates a lack of concern for intellectual clarity and scientific
> truth. Or, as Princeton Philosopher Harry G. Frankfurt would put describe
> it, this use of the word "faith" is bullshit.
>
> Or so it seems to me.
>
>
> [Case]
> I don't think Faith is Bullshit or at least not in Frankfurt's likening of
> Bullshit to humbug.
>
> At some level each of us has to decide on a personal standard of Truth or
> what they will accept as true. No matter what standard or standards you
> set
> you will eventually confront uncertainty. You hit a point at which
> unassisted reason can not guide you.
>
> It happens:
> If you study physics or math
> If you work in a factory or live in a cave
> Shit happens.
>
> You say:
> "Faith, by definition, is a belief held in the absence of evidence."
>
> It is also:
> Unconditional Belief
> Belief without rationalization
> Belief that cannot be logically proven or objectively known
> Don Juan called it: Following the path with a heart.
>
> Even establishing what constitutes evidence is an act of faith.
>
> With what word would you describe: belief that a mathematical axiom is
> true
> or that there are virtual particles?
> Or that the world is not just ideas?
> Or the there is anything outside of yourself?
>
> I think Faith serves pretty well. I can think of lots of really high
> quality
> ideas that I accept on Faith. Like the validity of mathematics and the
> power
> of reason.
>
> I may be wrong but it seems that Peter shows what the real issue is when
> he
> says: "Faith always stinks of religion to me. Having faith in something is
> a
> waste of energy."
>
> This seems like little more than prejudice. I would be interested to know
> what single word conveys why you think "gathering information" or
> "intellectual clarity and scientific truth" are important if not Faith?
>
>
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