[MD] Faith

[david buchanan]

Case, Gene, Ian and all MOQers:

Gene said to Ian:
I would readily agree that science is a much better structure than religion. 
The point I am trying to make is that they are both based on Faith.

dmb quotes from Pirsig's annotations on Copleston:
Responding to the assertion that science cannot proceed without 
presuppositions, Pirsig said,...

"That is true but this presuppostion is not an act of faith. Faith occurs 
when in the presence of conclusive contrary information he still clings to 
his presupposition."

"The MOQ does not rest on faith. In the MOQ faith is very low quality stuff, 
a willingness to believe falsehoods."

"No, a hypothesis is not an act of faith."

"The MOQ is an atheistic religious outlook that solves rather than bypasses 
religious problems."

"I really have no use for these smart-talking theists. They destroy 
religion."

"The MOQ would add a fourth stage where the term "God" is completely dropped 
as a relic of an evil social suppression of intellectual and Dynamic 
freedom. The MOQ is not just atheistic in this regard. It is anti-theistic."

As I understand it, the MOQ does quite a lot to grapple with the conflict 
between science and religion, between reason and faith. Nobody is required 
to accept Pirsig's view, of course, but considering the context of these 
discussions shouldn't we at least consider it? See, I think the trick is not 
to accept or reject religion itself so much as reject its unsupported 
claims, to jettison all the stuff that believed on the basis of faith and 
find the truth underneath all that. Then we can begin to see a way of having 
reason and religion at the same time, without conflict or contradiction. I 
mean, despite the fact that the MOQ is pragmatic and empirical, it can still 
manage to include mysticism.

Reducing science to a rival faith is pretty much the opposite move. Instead 
of evolving our religious beliefs so that they can survive the demands of 
intellectual quality, it simply throws all such standards out the window. 
That's devolution. That's degeneration. That's a step backward. And I've 
focused on the definition of the word faith long enough to make you puke, 
but what its really all about is the conflict between social and 
intellectual worldviews and the conflict between them.

I mean, the MOQ says a lot about this issue, but those who use "faith" to 
describe their belief in scientific truth seem to be quite oblivious to all 
that. Not to mention the dictionary.

Thanks.
dmb

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