[MD] Faith

[Joseph Maurer]

On Friday 28 July 2006 12:22 PM DMB writes to Joe:

Hey Joe:

That which gives substance to our hopes? What the heck does that mean?
Seriously.


[Joe] Hope is that which anyone wants as an individual, and doesn't have. It 
is expressed in a way of speech, in song, in art, in life. Objective science 
limits hope to uncertainty. Pirsig placed his hope in DQ. What evidence does 
he have for that? It is not something he could see. He sees only the result, 
SQ. He is convinced of something he cannot see. There is plenty of evidence 
that DQ exists. Mystical evidence! The evidence is always there, but you 
have to look in a special way to see it. Faith.

[DMB]
And Pauls claim that faith is that "which convinces us of things we cannot
see" sounds very much like a "belief held in the absence of evidence" to me.

[Joe] IMO evidence can be gathered logically, analogically, metaphorically 
(mystically).  Language expresses evidence. When I see a road sign that is 
simply an arrow, I drive accordingly.  God is metaphorical. If taken 
logically error results.  "belief held in the absence of evidence" is vague. 
What kind of evidence?  Only objective evidence?  What is the denial for 
hope?  "things we cannot see" is an affirmation that the eyes are not the 
only vehicle of sight upon which we can guide our steps.  The blind man 
walking.

[DMB]
And don't even get me started on all that stuff about your fears, yearnings
and sexual abuse that follows intimacy. I have no idea what that's suppose
to mean either.

Sorry Joe, I just don't see your point. Everything's all mixed up.


[Joe]  The clearest hope expressed in today's culture is for sexual favors. 
The clearest intimacy needed for relationship is expressed in sexual terms. 
Love is sexual in modern terms. I think you are being disingenuous when you 
say "I have no idea what that's suppose to mean either". Yearning is 
expressed as sexuality. Hope does not have to be sexual. The intimacy which 
results when I express my hope to learn about DQ does not have to have a 
baby.  I am sorry for being obscure.  I hope I have clarified some of my 
statements. Thanks for your input.

Joe


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david buchanan" <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Faith


> Hey Joe:
>
> That which gives substance to our hopes? What the heck does that mean?
> Seriously.
>
> And Pauls claim that faith is that "which convinces us of things we cannot
> see" sounds very much like a "belief held in the absence of evidence" to 
> me.
>
> And don't even get me started on all that stuff about your fears, 
> yearnings
> and sexual abuse that follows intimacy. I have no idea what that's suppose
> to mean either.
>
> Sorry Joe, I just don't see your point. Everything's all mixed up.
>
>
> Joe said:
>>Using your definition there is not much to faith. I have read another
>>definition by Paul in a letter to Hebrews: "What is faith? It is that 
>>which
>>gives substance to our hopes, which convinces us of things we cannot see."
>>(Hebrews 11:1)
>>
>>For myself, I am afraid of things that go bump in the night. Yes I have
>>hopes and wishes. I hope I express my yearnings in the way I write. I am
>>encouraged that Paul also wanted a substance for hope in the things we
>>cannot see. If I have no yearning for things I do not know, I don't know
>>how
>>I would learn! Yearning and not knowing! What a terrible combination.
>>Sexual
>>abuse follows the intimacy of yearning and not knowing. I don't think sex,
>>yearning, and knowing are all about the same thing.
>>
>>Joe
>
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