[MD] Faith

[Case]

dmb says:
SubGenious? I'll have you know that Bob's I.Q. is 170, which puts him well 
beyond the range of genius. But its not really about dogmatism or hero 
worship, is it? I think this is just your way of avoiding the quotes I 
dished up. Ha! As if it was out of bounds to quote the author we are here to

discuss. Ridiculous!

[Case]
Google SubGenius. The real problem error in the statements was leaving the
quotations off "Bob". I beg pardon of any church members this might have
offended.

dmb says:
Pirsig's use of the word "faith" is in accordance with the dictionary and 
common sense. Your use of the word "faith" defies all three AND my repeated 
complaints as well. At this point in the game I'm troubled by this stubborn 
defiance more than the way you use the word "faith". But its not about 
making me happy. Its about making sense.

[Case]
What seems to have you so riled, doesn't show up until the fourth entry at
dictionary.com.

dmb says:
How does it anger the faithful? You're contradicting my point, which was 
that your use of the word "faith" undermines the validity of science, that 
it undermines the distinction between scientific truths and beliefs held on 
the basis of "faith" and that the religious right uses this same tactic in 
their war on the theory of evolution and other anti-intellectual crusades. 
So how do you figure that the opposite is true. How do you deny that this 
helps the faithful and what case can you make that it angers them?

[Case]
How can the validity of science be undermined by the use of a word?

Religious illiteracy is rampant in the pews. Most "religious" people are
clueless about what they believe or why. If you engage them in an honest
discussion of their beliefs, they typically have no understanding of faith,
what it means or what it implies. You seem to have at least that much in
common with them. The religious right exploits this ignorance. But they are
one portion of the Body. There are other understandings of the message of
Christ. 

You are asserting the superiority of a particular mode of thought. I think
most Christians would agree with you about accepting the evidence of the
senses. But there are many ways to interpret sensory input. Where you have
Faith in the Scientific method, they Trust in scripture and tradition. Where
you have a technique they have a personal relationship with a living God.

By what standard do you judge yourself superior to them? In the long run
success is measured in the Quality of our offspring. On the whole I would
say people of faith show more than average concern for the well being of
children. This has worked out pretty well for them so far. 

It is your understanding of faith that drives your denial of its role in
science.

dmb says:
Here you are simply re-asserting the idea to which I've already objected, 
but you're doing so without addressing any of the objections. To repeat my 
most basic objection again, if scientific assertions are based on evidence, 
then what does it mean to say that it requires a leap of faith?

[Case]
I think I have been very clear here. I have talked about the specific
meaning of the word Faith and even offered up a replacement; Trust. I have
given you specific examples of mathematical ideas that require faith to
accept and examples of ideas in math and physics that were accepted on faith
by mathematicians and physicist. I have provided examples from philosophy of
science. You have shown no understanding of what I have said. Your
objections are based on your personal anti-religious prejudice, nothing
more. In fact your dogmatic assertions smack of the exact kind of blind
belief you see in others. 

Harping on this is not an effective way to attack the religious right

Case asked:
...Aren't theism, mysticism and science all in responses to uncertainty? 
They are attempts to contain it; to minimize its negative effects or 
maximize its positive effects. Mysticism urges acceptance of uncertainty 
either through elimination of desire or identification with the infinite. 
Theism urges acceptance of the will of God. Science urges reduction of 
uncertainty through improvement of our powers to predict and control.

dmb says:
I really don't understand this obsession with certainty and uncertainty. 

[Case]
That much is clear.

[dmb]
I don't think religion, mysticism and science can be united as a response to

certainty or the lack thereof.


[Case]
I didn't say they could or should be united. I said they are functionally
equivalent. They are different strategies for dealing with uncertainty. And
uncertainty makes fools of followers of all three. 

dmb says:
No. You seem to be eching an idea I heard long ago; that Humanity's cultural

activities are all about prediction and control. (I believe its a Freudian 
idea, but I've always preferred the Jungians, like Campbell, who edited "The

Portable Jung".) Viewed in this way, myth and religion are seen as a kind of

primitive science, as a pre-scientific means of explaining and controlling 
things. 

[Case]
If you do not attempt to predict and control you will die. Deficiencies in
this Quality are quickly thinned from the gene pool. People at all times and
places hold certain beliefs in common. The validity of their understanding
is measured with each generational iteration. 

[dmb]
You know, as if the move from rain-dancing to hydrotechnology is merely a
better way to stay wet.

[Case] 
When you get thirsty enough, you do what you gotta do...

[dmb]
But I think this view only leads to a profound misunderstanding of the
nature of myth and religion, where water might be a symbolic reference to a
spiritual reality rather than just a literal thirst quencher. This view is
part of the reason there is an apparent conflict between science and
religion today.

[Case]
We make myths.
We tell tales.
We solve puzzles.
We think metaphorically. 
We remember the past. 
We model the future.
We see what connects things 
And what pulls them apart.

We feel hunger and lust
We feel pride and love
We thirst and we dream
We yearn and we rejoice

To be bound to any of these is sin
To give service to them all
Is to follow the Way