[MD] Distinguishing Levels (Individual level)

[Platt Holden]

[Gene]
> As opposed to ideas magically emerging from individuals? Where do you
> think individuals get their ideas? The entire intellectual level is
> built on the social level. Individual's ideas come from the society they
> live in.

Oh? Where in society does an idea reside before an individual discovers 
it?

[Platt previously]
> I don't think so. The static collective values of such institutions as >
> governments, churches, schools, labor unions, the ACLU, etc. remain >
> distinct from individual values.

[Gene]
> This seems very much like what I am saying. There are many large,
> organized groups based around intellectual ideas. Especially School, and
> Science. They're a large conglomeration of people coming up with ideas
> together. Sure each idea comes from an individual first, but then
> everyone works on it. This is not social, but intellectual.

Glad you agree each idea comes from an individual FIRST. What I've been 
saying all along. When others start working on it, it becomes social. 
The social level is defined by "others." For example, this site taken 
as whole is in the social level. Individual contributors are in the 
intellectual or individual level -- for the most part. :-)  

[Platt previously] 
> I see the levels as patterns of value which is the same as patterns of >
> morality which is the same as patterns of moral codes. The intellectual
> > level fights to preserve the moral codes of free speech, free press, >
> property ownership, etc. to protect individual intellectual patterns >
> from dominance by social moral codes such as "go along to get along" >
> "be a team player," and "shape up or ship out," etc.

[Gene]
> Agreed, those are all intellectual ideas, and society would be just as
> happy to smother them. However society cannot exist without them, since
> it would then stagnate and probably implode. So by arguing For these
> ideas, were not arguing against society, but actually For society.

If you are referring to the intellectual moral codes of liberty cited 
above, many societies have existed for centuries without them.

[Platt previously]
> The social  level is not interested in freedom. It's highest value is >
> conformity. It is the intellectual level that says "No" to conformity >
> and sets us free to pursue DQ as each of us, individually, understands >
> and responds to DQ's "only good" which happens to be -- surprise, >
> surprise -- freedom. >
 
> You seem to think DQ can only be arrived at through the social level.

No. Only through the individual level. 

> All levels are in direct contact with DQ at all times. All the levels
> strain towards it. Society is attempting to achieve DQ in it's own way,
> as is biology, and even inorganic patterns strive for DQ. It's just each
> strives in different ways.

Pirsig stated that only a living being (individual) can respond to DQ, 
stated in a context of human beings. I agree. Perhaps you can 
illustrate how inorganic patterns, for example, strive for DQ.

[Gene]
> I would also challenge the link between an individual and their ideas.
> Sure, they had a great idea, but that doesn't make the individual
> important. It makes the Idea important. If they hadn't had it, someone
> probably would have later. The individual is almost of no importance to
> the intellectual pattern, just a way to get it out.

What good is an idea that lies buried in some mysterious Never-Never 
Land? Seems to me the first individual to unearth it is the important 
part of the equation. They are celebrated for good reason.  

>The whole idea of an
> individual level is pretty silly quite frankly. An individual comprises
> all levels, so how can we assign only one of the levels to them? It's
> like putting all the levesl onto that one level, it's nonsense. No
> offense intended.

As you know, the levels are not only known by what's contained in them, 
but by their relationship to other levels. As an individual, wouldn't 
you be most fulfilled if your intellect dominated all the other levels 
that you are comprised of? I would. No offense intended. 

Furthermore, Pirsig's levels are evolutionary and historical. The rise 
of the individual above conformity to society reflects evolution and 
history--as the story of the brujo illustrates.

It's the dynamic, not the static, aspect of the levels that I think are 
more revealing of reality and how the world works.

Platt



Platt
 


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