[MD] Distinguishing Levels

[david buchanan]

DM, Arlo, Steve, Gene and all:

dmb quoted Lila, chapter 30:
"...anthropological studies of contemporary primitive tribes suggest that 
stone age people were probably bound by ritual all day long.  ...One can 
imagine primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with certain 
cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first primitive religions. 
>From these the first intellectual truths could have been derived."

DM asked dmb:
do you not see any intellect involved in the creation of these 
myths/rituals? Where do they come from prior to becoming repeated?

dmb says:
Intellect involved in the creaton of myths? No, I think Pirsig is saying 
that myth necessarily comes before intellect, that myth is a prerequisite 
for intellect. As I understand it, myth is the parent of intellect in the 
same way that biological organism have to come before social structures. 
This is not to suggest that people living in primitive tribes are devoid of 
intelligence or congnitive functions, its just that myth and reason are 
different kinds or levels of cognitive function, each with their own rules, 
grammer and logic, so to speak. This anthropological quote puts the issue in 
terms of cultural development so that the contemporary tribes serve as a 
window into the sort of culture we all come from.

I was also trying to suggest that the mythos over logos argument in ZAMM is 
revised in Lila. You proabably remember that Arlo quoted the relevant 
passage recently...

>"The term logos, the root word of "logic," refers to the sum total of our
>rational understanding of the world. Mythos is the sum total of the early
>historic and prehistoric myths which preceded the logos. The mythos
>includes not only the Greek myths but the Old Testament, the Vedic Hymns
>and the early legends of all cultures which have contributed to our present
>world understanding. The mythos-over-logos argument states that our
>rationality is shaped by these legends, that our knowledge today is in
>relation to these legends as a tree is in relation to the little shrub it
>once was. One can gain great insights into the complex overall structure of
>the tree by studying the much simpler shape of the shrub. There's no
>difference in kind or even difference in identity, only a difference in 
>size."

The difference between mythos and logos here is just one of size so that the 
latter is just a more mature version of the former. But in Lila this aspect 
has been revised to say that logos is not a grown up version of mythos, but 
rather the child of the mythos, a seperate being if you will. I think the 
revison is a very good idea for lots of reasons, but one of the biggest 
reasons is that it clears up lots of confusion to make them discrete. I 
mean, if we read myth as crude science or bad, wishful history, we're gonna 
fail to see what these myths actually meant and mean. I think this is 
crucial not just for sorting out social and political conflicts, but also 
becasue these myths represent our evolutionary heritage and constitute MOST 
of what we are. Like Gene, I view the intellect as a very young and fragile 
creature. In terms of the scope of human cultural evolution, intellect was 
just born yesterday while the mythos has been evolving for hundreds of 
thousands of years or more.

And its not that we dispose of these mythic things just because of this new 
child. As Steve reminds us, celebrity and wealth, fame and fortune are still 
powerful forces. As Joe Campbell, Carl Jung and many others explain, we all 
live by the myths we inherit and they're basic to the structure of human 
consciousness. I should also point out that language and myth are totally 
intertwined too. Like my favorite coffee mug says, "people create stories 
create people create stories create people" and so on. Pirsig also says 
something like, people don't preform religious rituals BECAUSE they believe 
in God, they believe in God BECAUSE they preform religious rituals.

So, do people invent myths or do myths invent people? Yes, definatley.

dmb

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