[MD] Distinguishing Levels

[Platt Holden]

> [Case]
> Socials hierarchies are present throughout nature. In some there ar
> physical differences between caste members in some there aren't. In mos
> primate societies the leaders are hard to pick out. Dress codes among
> human. make actually make it easier to single out the leaders from the
> followers. It would be far easier to locate the Pope in a stadium of
> people that to pick out the alpha male in the ape habitat at the Atlanta
> zoo. To set up "society" as a metaphysical level then refuse to consider
> the thousand of types of social organizations that exist in nature has
> always seemed odd to me. Human society has clear and obvious precursors
> among other members of the primate family. 
> 
> [Arlo]
> I just responded with something very similiar. I think Pirsig mispoke on
> this one. The quote makes it evident that he is confusing "ant-bodies"
> with the social behavior of ants, saying because we can detect the
> former with scientific instruments the latter can't be on the social
> level. For the reasons, too, which you've cited, I think the MOQ is much
> stronger and precise if it covers all of nature and their varied social
> organizations (as you say).

Pirsig clearly defines the MOQ social level in the following excerpts 
from Lila's Child:

"5.This is a stretch that seems to destroy the meaning of the word 
"society."  One could say "an atom is a society of electrons and 
protons", but that weakens the meaning of the word without gaining 
anything.

"11.Using the MOQ description of biology as objective and society as 
subjective, it is clear that sheep are biological.  A herd of sheep is 
also biological.

"18. In Lila there is a difference, although I neglected to state it.  
Cells are objective.  Societies are subjective. No objective scientific 
instrument can detect a society. 

"19. In Lila societies are quite separate patterns that emerge from and 
are superimposed upon of organic bodies of people, but they are not 
combinations of these organic bodies of people In Lila there is no such 
thing as a "cell-society."

"22. In Lila there is no such thing as a "cell-society." Organic 
patterns are not social patterns.

"28. For precision I think I would say that a culture contains social 
and intellectual values, but not biological and inorganic. 

"93.This strikes me as so general it destroys the meaning of society 
for MOQ purposes.  I think it is better just to keep it as the 
subjective customs of groups of people."

And from SODV:

"The social patterns in the next box down include such institutions as 
family, church and government. They are the patterns of culture that 
the anthropologist and sociologist study." 

Would Case and Arlo argue that atoms that combine to make a cloud are a 
society?

An ant colony is detectable by seeing it, as is a primate group and pod 
of dolphins. They are detectable. We can take a picture of them with an 
instrument called a camera. But a human society?    

Of course, if Case and Arlo are right, if wouldn't be the only mistake 
Pirsig made, like his misnaming of the intellectual level. :-)  

Platt