[MD] The Individual Level

[Steve Peterson]

Hi Platt,

> Can you give any textual support for thinking of the levels as
> containing other levels—not of an individual as being composed of
> patterns of all levels, but the levels containing other levels?

Platt quotes:
"Mind is contained in static inorganic patterns. Matter is contained in 
static intellectual patterns. Both mind and matter are completely 
separate evolutionary levels of static patterns of value, and as such 
are capable of each containing the other without contradiction." 
 

Steve:
I wouldn't interpret it to say that a level can contain another level, but I can see where you could readit as support for your claim.

I read it as saying that the mind is thought to be contained in the brain which is ultimately a bunch of atoms, and that matter is an idea. From an inorganic perspective mind refers to an objective thing, and from an intellectual perspective, matter is a subjective idea.

These are two different perspectives--two different ways of looking at mind and matter. To me it doesn't say that the intellectual level as a whole is contained in the inorganic level or vice versa.

> Platt:
> Sounds to me like a chicken or egg question. I say you can't have 
> intellectual patterns without human beings (individuals) to create them.
 
> Steve:
> It's a bit like the chicken and the egg, and that's a good point.
> But in this case I think we can figure out where Pirsig's metaphysics
> starts. Does it start with the individual or does it start with the
> collections of patterns of value from which we create an analogue of
> this individual? Well it starts with Quality, but what comes next,
> patterns of values or individuals.
> 
> This question seems to be at the root of our disagreement. Would you
> agree?

Platt:
Patterns and individuals are both analogues of experience. So I don't 
see the difference you see at the start of Pirsig's metaphysics. 


Steve:
Analogue is another way of saying pattern whereas an individual is only one example of an anologue. I think that the MOQ starts with analogues in general and can be applied to individuals.

Regards,
Steve


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