[MD] Does the MOQ invalidate Subjectivity?

[Gene M]

> But do you really believe the world
> perceives itself?   Is this a principle of Taoism, Vitalism, or New Age
> philosophy that I've missed?


I don't so much think it perceives itself, as that it is aware of itself. A
Rock knows it's a Rock, and remains a Rock simply because it doesn't know
Not to be a Rock. I honestly have no source to ascribe that idea to, as far
as I know it's one of my own.

I can see no reason or need to ascribe subjectivity to a universe that is
> largely
> inanimate.  But possibly by "the world" you mean to suggest something
> greater than the physical universe.  A Creator, for example, a Collective
> Consciousness -- or an aesthetic Absolute, perhaps?


And that's cool man. You're in a place where that's simply not ncessary for
your ideas. I just think it's a nice idea. There's no real Reason for it.
And yeah, I pretty much just mean The World. Same one you're talking about.
We're seeing the same Rock. I think of it this way: If all life on earth
were completely wiped out, I'm pretty sure the earth would continue to orbit
the sun much unchanged for our absence.

Protagoras said: "Of all things the measure is man, of the things that are,
> that [or "how"] they are, and of things that are not, that [or "how"] they
> are not."


 I would amend that to say: "To men, of all things the measure is man." It
seems circular, I guess. But I think it's important to put that kind of idea
in context. Of course to us, our perception is of the utmost importance. It
just strikes me as vain to assume it's All that is important. The sparrow
doesn't give a damn whether you see it or not, it has young to feed and a
life of it's own to lead. The fish in the deep ocean lived eons without
anyone noticing them, and they seem to be doing allright.

Me thinks you expect too much of your world, Gene.  I suggest that you
> settle for the values it adds to your life-experience and not be concerned
> that it is incapable of perceiving you.
>

I just don't expect that much of Myself I guess. I don't much care if it
knows I'm around or not, I'm happy to be here and enjoying myself. I just
like to think that once I'm gone, it'll all keep going.

There's a Zen Koan I once read and it's influenced my thought immensely.
I'll paraphrase what I remember of it here. Apologies to anyone if I mess it
up.

A master walks to his student who is meditating in the yard, points to a
largish rock on the ground and asks "Is that rock truly there, or does it
exist only in your mind?"
The student replies "It is only in my mind master."
His master looks at him an remarks "You must have a very heavy head!"

I like that.

-Gene